GBR Andrew Butchart -- Profile, Progression, Questions?

You almost got any to blame the Information age of the 21st century. A 24 year old Scots has a breakout campaign in 2016 and its awesome. Great for Scots, great for the UK, cool for white people coming off an age void of white distance hopes. But with all Butchart's (or anyone for that matter) past results, it's just fodder for head-scratching.

And anyone in the sport should scratch a head at his sudden breakout. We weren't just born yesterday. And by that I mean "born" as 6th place Olympian.

cbenson4 wrote:

Roho. wrote:

These f***ing boards, no one is allowed to improve without dope suspicion. How does anyone get anywhere?

If you look at his progression, he doesn't get much better from 20-22 years old, and isn't that good at 23 either with only a 13:58 5k and 8:0x 3k. Suddenly, 1 year later, he's winning or getting top 3 spots at high competition meets and running 13:08-13:14.

Does that sound reasonable to you?

Sounds to me like he got frustrated and finally hopped aboard the dope train

And the dope word finally appears.

The rabid dogs were already foaming at the mouth in anticipation.

You need more than beet juice and ubiquinol.

Rob Young, UK's finest ultra runner and multiple world record holder, just confirmed me that Andrew is clean. His words: "he isn't doped to the gills, absolutely not."

Just glanced at the thread. Was he part of the UK contingent training in Kenya? Where a doctor has admitted facilitating the blood doping of 3 athletes?

Clerk wrote:

Just glanced at the thread. Was he part of the UK contingent training in Kenya? Where a doctor has admitted facilitating the blood doping of 3 athletes?

Font-Romeu, France and Flagstaff, U.S., so far.

fred wrote:

Clerk wrote:

Just glanced at the thread. Was he part of the UK contingent training in Kenya? Where a doctor has admitted facilitating the blood doping of 3 athletes?

Font-Romeu, France and Flagstaff, U.S., so far.

Okay. Nevermind my post, then.

HeraldScotland:

"He spent eight weeks at altitude, in Flagstaff, Arizona, preparing for two races he hoped would get him the required times. The first lacked a pace-maker and proved tactical. He shared an apartment with fellow Scots Eilish McColgan and Beth Potter, plus Mike Rimmer and Rob Mullet. "It was a great atmosphere."

Farah was there part of the time. "We ran a few times together, just steady runs. By the time he arrived, I was tapering for the race."

For heaven's sake, yes, everyone now who does anything good is going to come under scrutiny. But it's not like he ran 12:30. 13:08 is a great time but it's eight seconds slower than Dave Moorcroft ran thirty or so years ago. People make breakthroughs, sometimes big ones and rarely do it on schedule.

Real Points wrote:

Metric Miler wrote:

Andy Butchart is talented, you are not.

I believe this is the entire point in questioning within this thread. If we add up the number of 1500m races run over the past 5 years, we have 30+ different races. And these yeild a 3:44.57 from May 2015, which he won by .3 over a guy who, well, I'll leave you to click on Chris Watson's name. Yes, that was 15 months ago.

Is Butchart talented enough to suddenly at 24 be a world player when only a year ago at 23 he wasn't talented enough to be owning his regional competition? His legs have been very good to him since Christmas, so thank Scottish Santa I guess.

The 3:44 means nothing. He has been running 3:44 for 3+ years. His 5k is what has been improving. Since 2009 he has improved it 1:40 from 14:49. He didn't race the 5k for many of those years.

Doesn't seem extremely suspicious to me. He improved it by 50 seconds over the last 2 years after focusing on the 5k. He has become a full time athlete also.

Letsrun is brilliant at creating conspiracies for the supposed doping plans for different athletes so I'm not surprised by this thread really.

I started this thread on August 5th. Butchart spiked in May and June. This isn't a biological marker, it's a performance marker. It was worth questioning then as it is even more so now.

Bandwagons are made to follow winners and everyone loves the Cinderella story, but fables abound. Too many athletes have been adorned with gold and titles only to have them later revoked. In a number of cases, revocation has been based on admission rather than on actual disqualifying evidence. So yes, we are in the anti-trust age where research, comparison, and common sense will guide our response to an athlete's performance.

Mo Farah went from being unknown at age 26 to the best ever at 33. He's been world champ without any real rival for 5 years. Before that, he couldn't outkick Jesus Espana. Another GBR runner emerges with major performance changes and we're right to question physiology.

Simple really, Brits don't hit puberty until they're in their mid 20s

HRE wrote:

For heaven's sake, yes, everyone now who does anything good is going to come under scrutiny. But it's not like he ran 12:30. 13:08 is a great time but it's eight seconds slower than Dave Moorcroft ran thirty or so years ago. People make breakthroughs, sometimes big ones and rarely do it on schedule.

Moorcroft, eh? I'm exiting the thread but I'll leave you with a list of names. You seem to be downplaying Butchart's monumental Mark.

Of caucasian US, only these runners have gone faster over than Butchart over 5000m: Kennedy, Ritz, Solinsky, Teg, Rupp, Jager, True, Hill, Jenkins, and Derrick -- 10 white US runners with faster PRs than Butchart. As good as Goucher was, he never cracked 13:10.

In Australia: Only Mottram

In Canada: None

Oh yes...

In New Zealand: None (Damn you Robertsons)

If some of you guys suspect AB of doping because of his jump from year on year, chew on this very slowly...

US Army poster boy Paul Chelimo, 2nd in Rio, has done exactly the same not once but twice.

- Ran 13.37 in 2015

- Ran 13.21 in May this year

- And then ran 13.03 in Rio

That's 34 seconds improvement year on year (Butchart only improved 21seconds over the same period, similarly over few races)

If you go backward then you will also see that:

- Ran 13:53 in 2011

- and then he improved to 13:21 in 2012

That's another 32 seconds year on year

So for the sake of the same argument, do you imply he is "onto something" as well or maybe not because he is now a US runner?

After all if you think that training alone cant explain these kind of improvements....

fred wrote:

HeraldScotland:

"He spent eight weeks at altitude, in Flagstaff, Arizona, preparing for two races he hoped would get him the required times. The first lacked a pace-maker and proved tactical. He shared an apartment with fellow Scots Eilish McColgan and Beth Potter, plus Mike Rimmer and Rob Mullet. "It was a great atmosphere."

Farah was there part of the time. "We ran a few times together, just steady runs. By the time he arrived, I was tapering for the race."

fred.

Do you really think that Andrew Butchart is sneaking away somewhere (the bathroom?)…to inject himself (either subcutaneous or intravenous) with EPO…while sharing an apartment with Mike Rimmer, Rob Mullet, Beth Potter, and Eilish McColgan (I remember her mother running fred!!!)???

If you do think that…then that means that you are even more of an insane, lunatic, psychotic, conspiracy nutcase…than me.

fred.

This makes me worried about you now.

Please double your Risperdal dose…and give me an Insane-Lunatic-Psychotic-Conspiracy-Nutcase™ Update in 72 hours.

OK?

EPO is so passé, Doc

Runners World - John Brant

"“He was surprised, I think, that I brought up the subject,” Hellebuyck says. “Let me state again that the idea was mine and not his. Leonid didn’t try to sell me on it. I don’t know what his part of the deal was, why he would be providing. I got a feeling later on, he was thinking that I was like a guinea pig. He got excited about experimenting on a runner with my talent. He wanted to see what he could do with me. I asked him when we could start, and he said tomorrow. My goal was the 2001 New York City Marathon [in three months], and Leonid is saying for the stuff to work you have to get in a six-week cycle before your event.”

The next day, Hellebuyck says, Shvetsov came to his house with EPO. (While confirming that Shvetsov gave her husband EPO, Shawn disputes her husband’s contention that the drug was ever in the couple’s home.) The two men went into a bathroom. “I’m nervous, I’m scared, I’m shaking,” Hellebuyck says. “I’m scared to death of needles. Leonid actually put it into my arm the first couple of times. My right arm, underneath the bicep. He said you had to be sure you were giving the right dose at first because you adjust it to your weight. Leonid is a doctor and he knows all this. He puts the needle right here under my arm; there’s a lot of skin there. And then, after he was done with me, he did it to himself. Leonid did it in his leg."

In case you check back in and as you expanded your list beyond only white US runners, you missed Dieter Baumann. I think you've established here that running under 13:10 is possible for non-Africans and not something that requires an unusual amount of scrutiny.