TINMAN BASHES WEJO's COACH

Antonio Cabral wrote:Now it´s up to you to search the Hadd posts and find when Kellog said that about me.

I thought you might say something like that Antonio.

I call bullshit. Put up or shut up.

J-B wrote:

Your criticism is all poor form. It contains nothing of substance.

Mr. Grammar wrote:

Obviously got nothing of intelligence to add to the debate

"Hold on," he warbled mirthfully, raising an index finger in the air for emphasis. His wake-and-bake session hadn't done much for his perceptive powers, but he was fairly certain he was following this non-issue quite nicely. "Could one of you elaborate on the nature of the 'debate' here and explain what would constitute 'substance'?" he asked. "Because to me this, looks like an old-fashioned Internet rip-fest, not a means to a productive end."

He plumbed his gaily unwinding brain for a suitable analogy. "You might as well be complaining that the Back to the Future film series represents a poor treatment of modern space-time theory," he effused. He was proud to have struck a chord everyone would be able to grok; it was enough of a boost to cajole him toward the bathroom for his first shower in over a week.

Why doesn't the great Tinman come on here and defend himself? I guarantee he has read it and can defend himself. Does he think that he will be looked upon as being a better person for not engaging us down in the muck? Or has his temper really been shown on run-insight.com like a crying 3 year old without his favorite toy? I think he is extremely jealous of the success of JK. JK is a passionate coach that may not have Tinman's science based background. But none the less has had more success than Tinman. Thus leaving Tinman fuming with jealousy.

EVERY effect has a cause. If Antonio is correct, then in the spirit of fairness lets go out and unearth the words that led to Tinman's outburst. You might actually get somewhere, with this evidence, that will clear up this case once and for all.

Tinman apologizes:

John:

My apologies to you. It was the topic, not you that got me hot. I have a short Irish fuse some times. Man, I wish I had avoided the discussion and found a way to talk about the issues instead of having my ire up because of past slights taken to heart.

If JK or his friends are reading this, I apologize to for my uptight behavior. To Bruce Hyde, who notified me that he took personal offense by my words, I apologize to you too. I said to Bruce that I think JK is a good coach, and I do mean it. I have an academic mentality toward citations and references which don't seem to match the internet world. For this, I must learn and move on. Hopefully, all in all, we learn from each other, share, and grow in ways the let the running community prosper. Most of all, the important thing is we remember the admirable goal is to help others with their running.

Again, I am sorry for what I have written. Let's get busy running or writing about it.

Thanks for your time. Tinman

I don't defend either person in this skirmish. But, to answer the question on why Tinman doesn't come on here-he stated that he was done posting here. I can't say that I blame him for not wanting to be involved in what's going on in this thread. Would you?

Both JK and Tinman seemed to have helped quite a few people on here with their writings-as have Joe Rubio, malmo, Bob Hodge and Marius Bakken. The thing to do would be to pick through all of the writing and use what you can and discard what doesn't work for you or your athletes. Debate about the writing is great, but it appeared to me that John Finnegan was baiting him and he reacted. Big deal-Tinman got over and maybe we all could as well.

If anything, ESL PhD, it's also an indictment of the same educational monopoly that spit the likes of your sorry ass out.

Finnegan wasn't baiting him. Did you even read the thread? If you watch Tinman takes pot shots at anyone that doesn't live up to his standards or agree with his methodologies. This isn't the first time he has attacked someone it is just the most noticeable.

I think it is very funny that Tinman says he wants to learn from others. When the reality is that he only sees things one way: Two hard workouts a week year round with different emphasis on different energy systems every 6 weeks. You should use full recovery when doing anything faster than Tempo pace. You should not do a lot fast repetitions like repeat 400s at 1500 pace. You should use moderate mileage like 70-80s or go all the way up to over a hundred miles a week. You should not taper very much because it erodes your aerobic effiency. You should do strides every day to maintain your speed.

Now that might be a great training philosophy. It might work for some. However to say that it is a better way for everyone to train than other coaches philosophies is down right ignorant. He hasn't shown us anything or new or results in realpeople to back up that his program is better than anyone else's.

Also,isn't that basicly what Jack Daniels has been telling people to do for years. Tinman isn't some great coach. He just understands the science (and can explain it)behind what Jack Daniels has been telling people for years.

master man of track wrote:

Tinman apologizes:

"John" apologizes to Tinman:

JohnFinnegan

Registered: 11/18/04

Posts: 21

Unread post Yesterday at 07:37 PM

Joe and Tinman, good stuff.

Tinman, I extend to you my apologies about that other stuff.

-JF (to employ the nickname others have given me)

Not that it matters. But JF was right and didn't need to apologize for anything.

master man of track wrote:

Not that it matters. But JF was right and didn't need to apologize for anything.

Evidently, JF felt the need to apologize.

Not that it matters. But he only did it because he didn't want the discussion to get away from the original topic. Like you.

The grammar issue is a bit of a tangent from the JK-Tinman issue but probably a more important issue anyway. I think my ivory tower friend has discussed our college coach's grammar in a reasonable fashion but is being bashed so I'll step is for some support.

The problem, simply stated, is that anyone with a MA in English should have a basic grasp of grammar. At least this person should have an appreciation for the system in which thought is conveyed in its written form.

The more important problem is that one of the two following situations is likely. Either this coach has a MA degree from a school that grants advanced degrees with no regard for the student's capacity in that field or this coach is someone who has little attention to detail in fields that are of great concern to him.

The first is an issue very dear to my wife which I have also taken to heart. Grade inflation is perhaps the most dangerous problem with our educational system. Look no further than Harvard, America's flagship intellectual institution, and see that 91% of all graduates receive honors or that about half of all grades are A's and you begin to understand. Certainly all of these students are distinguished, acknowledged by their acceptance to Harvard, but apparently learning and excellence has taken a back seat to diploma granting. If Harvard can't distinguish from their best from their average students then how can we expect any regular state university to pay attention to which yokels get the MA and which don't?

The second is possibly more important--at least if you are on this coach's team. The apparent disregard for detail in something presumably so important (hey, this person received a MA in English!) is surely translated into other "important" arenas like the development of runners and giving potentially life-changing advice to impressionable young runners.

Then again, maybe coach made the post in haste and these grammatical blunders aren't representative of his education and attentiveness.

That said, our college coach makes great points about the other issue at hand. I must not deny him this. Also, Wejo, I think he means Tinman as the self-promoting coach. At least that's always the way I've seen it. Seldom do I read some good advice from Tinman that isn't preceeded by something like "sorry I've taken so long to reply... I've been busy coaching lots of young athletes..."

So what's the point? It's not to bash Coach J and I apologize if he's likewise a thin-skinned, would-be writer/coach and feels offended. The point is that we need to learn to pay attention. Read and think. At least that's what I'm trying to do. I may not be great at this yet, and I certainly have made grammatical mistakes as well (which J-B can critique if he finds the rectum in which he last lodged that Princeton grammar book), but I think our civic leadership (of which coaches play an important role) should hold this standard as well. Our college coach friend has shown some good thought in his review of the Tinman-JK fiesta. Don't stop there.

yes, no, maybe so wrote:

The first is an issue very dear to my wife which I have also taken to heart. Grade inflation is perhaps the most dangerous problem with our educational system.

The second is possibly more important--at least if you are on this coach's team. The apparent disregard for detail in something presumably so important (hey, this person received a MA in English!) is surely translated into other "important" arenas like the development of runners and giving potentially life-changing advice to impressionable young runners.

.

You need to read Paul Goodman, John Holt, Pat Farrenga, John Taylor Gatto, Bruce Goldberg, Ivan Illich, Leo Tolstoy and anyone else who understands what education monopolies produce. Grade inflation doesn't make it on their radar.

Tinman wrote:

"I have an academic mentality toward citations and references which don't seem to match the internet world."

This mentality is a little out of whack for someone whose name does not seem to grace any scholarly papers.

Y'all, this guy may have picked up some useful info in his travels and is apparently generous about dishing it out (as long as you don't disagree with him or agree with those he doesn't like) but he is living in a fantasy world and the "abuse" is understandable.

maybe in the socially-conscious spirit of those you mention you can shed some light on the problems you're thinking about

It goes like this: separation of school and state.

>>>>The grammar issue is a bit of a tangent from the JK-Tinman issue but probably a more important issue anyway. I think my ivory tower friend has discussed our college coach's grammar in a reasonable fashion but is being bashed so I'll step is for some support.

The problem, simply stated, is that anyone with a MA in English should have a basic grasp of grammar. At least this person should have an appreciation for the system in which thought is conveyed in its written form.

Like I said...who cares. This is a running forum. Lot's of us can't be stuffed re-reading our posts, typos and shit grammar happen all the time. We're just on here to express our points of view. The message is still the same no matter how it's written. If you think the technicalities of English are so important find an English forum, don't bring the BS here,

MY worthless 2 cents on this fairly worthless thread:

1) Tinman is a pretty thin-skinned, and has a temper. He is also likely a good coach, knowledgeable in phsiology, and maybe "generous" with his time. But for years on this board he regularly gets offended and then blows up....and then later apologizes. Oh well, but that is his reality. He appears to have some personality issues.

2) JK: seems like a good coach. We know the Wejo success story. But there are 10000's of coaches around the world that can claim similar credentials (ok, sure, maybe not EXACTLY the same credential of taking a high 29 10k guy and turning him into a low 28 10 k guy, but.....probably similarly impressive improvements in other events. Or maybe not one outstanding example like that, but possibly more VOLUME of successful runners. In short, it's nice that Wejo and Bruce Hyde defend their coach so much, but in reality.....isn't he just another coach with a couple medium-profile atheltes?). Is he Hadd? It's quite possible. Pete thinks that is funny, well PETE THOUGHT(for years) THAT FLAGPOLE WILLY WAS JOKING ABOUT BEING A SELF-OBSESSED EGOTIST, THAT IT WAS ALL AN "ACT." Sorry Pete, but you've been fooled before, maybe you are being fooled again. And as far as Antonio's claims, isn't it quite possible he remembers reading something without having that exact passage saved and bookmarked??? Yes, of course it is. If you want to prove him wrong, do so. So "call bullshit" all you want......who cares.

3) Grammar/spelling police.

Give it up people. Most of the errors that that guy was pointing out were TYPO'S. Simple mistakes of the fingers, not the mind. Do you really spend hours re-reading and spell-checking everyone of your posts???? If so, YOU are the loser.

4) 3rd Person Panache

Keep up the good work! I see that you(your character) moved from the Scotch bottle to the weed. I am enjoying your "notes from a downward spiral," or whatever you want to call your posts. Funny stuff.

That is my useless contribution to this useless thread (of which I only read about 10% of the posts)