Do elite train in flats?

about 2.5 mos of running and walking in them.

Trackhead: Are you sure that the drop in the Free is only 8mm? To me, the drop in the Free feels more than the drop in the Tiger Paws (10mm) or the Hs (about 7mm?). Of course, some shoes with similar technical measurements feel different because of the arch or the density of the heel cushioning (e.g., TPs feel like they have less of a drop than the Spacers to me; yet both measure 20/10).

That's what I've heard from Nike, although the women's Free is a little more.

A lot of people keep talking about the Japanese training in flats, its true that in most running shops about 90% of the shoes on display would be classed as racers over there and that shoes in the West have gotten progressively heavier. If you take a look at a shoe review from say 1984 you will see that almost all of the Nike shoes for example weighed around 250 grams and below, now the average is about 350 grams.

However if you go to Japan you will notce that peopel run very differently, particularly the elite athletes. they are taught to land on their heels as they believe this is the most efficient method of running long distances, so there are far fewer lower leg injuries and the muscles do not have to cope with so much twisting/powering off, most European/American elites run on the midfoot/forefoot. Japanese elites shuffle, I would imagine they have more problems with hip injuries...

The Pose method on the other hand advocates landing on the forefoot, so anybody who uses the Japnese and the Pose method as a combined argument are very wrong.

I do believe in wearing a lightweight flexible shoe and allowing the body to absorb the shock naturally rather than sticking a big chunk of hard plastic between you and the ground. but I also think you to wear a specific shoe depending on what you are doing. On days when you are tired and running relaxed I don't see anything wrong in wearing a neutral cushioned shoe...

I wear the NB 834, 570 and 579 which incidentally I bought in Japan, they were the heaviest shoes you can get...

waz wrote:

However if you go to Japan you will notce that peopel run very differently, particularly the elite athletes. they are taught to land on their heels as they believe this is the most efficient method of running long distances, so there are far fewer lower leg injuries and the muscles do not have to cope with so much twisting/powering off, most European/American elites run on the midfoot/forefoot. Japanese elites shuffle, I would imagine they have more problems with hip injuries...

Where is your support that there are far fewer lower leg injuries with a heel landing?

If you check out the latest issue of Running Times, the article on Japanese Olympic Marathon Champ, Noguchi, talks about how she lands on her midfoot/flatfooted, whereas Deena Kastor lands on her heels. Dr. Yessis talks about the pawback motion when landing flatfooted which decreases the landing forces (greater surface area to absorb and withstand energy and force) and helps propel the body forward instead of vertical. Landing on the heels prevents the pawback motion and decreases forward momentum and velocity. The author goes to say, "All other factors being equal, if Deena Kastor had had a similar pawback as Noguchi, I believe Kastor could have easily defeated Noguchi in Athens."

There is very little heel height difference between the two. However the DS trainer does have a firmer speva midsole and less forefoot cushioning. So your calves could be tight for a number of reasons: the adjustment to a firmer less cushioned forefoot, or just tight muscles from running period.

I prefer to consider myself an advocate for a more natural biomechanical gait cycle for myself as well as for others. If one chooses flats that is great, and if they want to go barefoot thats cool. Wearing lower profile shoes is a very important part of the equation though the mainstream foot wear industries would like us to believe otherwise.

I felt comfortable right away, but I also competed and trained in spikes and flats on a regular bases. I highly recommend wearing a shoe 1 inch or less for all of your daily activities. This helps the lower leg adjust with out adding the extra impact and pounding. Once you can walk around all day in a minimal shoe you should be ready for some running in them. During this adjustment period massage and stretch muscles of your feet and achilles and your transition should go smoothly. Good luck.

Jaguar1,

I would appreciate an opportunity to read your research and view your videos. I have enjoyed your posts here. Thanks!

DGD

nhscc@comcast.net

You wrote: "However if you go to Japan you will notce that peopel run very differently, particularly the elite athletes. they are taught to land on their heels . . . so there are far fewer lower leg injuries and the muscles do not have to cope with so much twisting/powering off.... The Pose method on the other hand advocates landing on the forefoot, so anybody who uses the Japnese and the Pose method as a combined argument are very wrong."

Although more force is absorbed by the lower leg in the Pose method, there is not a lot more twisting per se, and there is practically no powering off at all -- there is only pulling the foot from the ground with a hamstring contraction. Also, both the Pose method and the Japanese running have compact movements, with the legs staying more under the center of gravity.

Mr. Flats,

Do you have any recommendations for the walking around shoes. Personally I just order an old version of the adidas adistars. Like how long should you walk around in them...an hour the first week, 2 the second, or can you just go cold turkey and wear them all the time?

Thanks,

GS

Just to clarify, Deena does not train in the Trabucos. It was just for the photo shoot...the Trabucos just happened to be the cleanest trainers in her closet. In fact, she trains regularly in the DS-Trainers, about a pair per month.

-Shawn, ASICS America

So your saying that when we see photos of the elites, they may not be wearing the shoes that they normally train in? They may be wearing the shoes that the company is marketing most heavily or the cleanest pair? I'm shocked! Shocked!

Seriously, thanks for sharing the info.

Shawn@ASICS wrote:

Just to clarify, Deena does not train in the Trabucos. It was just for the photo shoot...the Trabucos just happened to be the cleanest trainers in her closet. In fact, she trains regularly in the DS-Trainers, about a pair per month.

-Shawn, ASICS America

What did she race in at the Olympics? What does Noguchi train in?

Deena raced in a specially made-up Magic Racer. Special because she picked the colors, other than that they were stock. She has a pair of custom made racing flats made by the folks in Japan. She wore them in London, but prefers the Magic Racer. I do not know what Noguchi trains in. She gets all of her training gear from ASICS Japan.

-Shawn, ASICS America

Hey Jag,

what class did you do this research for? Just wondering?

Thanks,

GS

ghost racers wrote:

Hey Jag,

what class did you do this research for? Just wondering?

Thanks,

GS

Biomechanics. I've also had Physics 1 and 2.

So the Japanese dont get hurt? What about Baldini? He sure looked hurt at the Olympics. I knew it was only a matter of time before you would chime in with your bs about flats and the vast conspiracy against them.

I know of two former elites who never did. They might run an odd workout or two in flats but never on a consistent day-to-day basis.

ghost racers wrote:

Hey Jag,

what class did you do this research for? Just wondering?

Thanks,

GS

Biomechanics. I've also had Physics 1 and 2 and Anatomy and Kinesiology. In my Kinesiology course, I analyzed the muscles/movements/innervation involved in each phase of the running cycle, and then I took what I gained from Physics and Biomechanics to compare barefoot and shod running phase by phase. What's amazing is everything you read from previous research can visually be seen by video clips. I did this project to confirm what I was reading.

Speaking of Baldini, he trains in the 2000 series.