Calling experts on track rules!!! Is this a DQ?

haha wrote:

You've 'lost respect' for the U of Guelph!? I'm assuming you're Canadian as most people here likely aren't familiar enough with the program

I'm Canadian, and familiar enough to know this would be DST-planned without even reading so on this thread.

The code says "the ends don't justify the means" That's commie or Marxist talk. The code says "Repeated fouls means don't let them finish the event. Take them out even though it means you are DQ'd with them. I'm Canadian and that was the code for the boards. Don't start it, but make sure you finish it. else it will be repeated over and over again.

I don't think that Guelph will be trying this again anytime soon - at least not as blatantly - after the backlash they received on Trackie and on this thread. Hopefully their coaching staff and athletes are going to realize that Canadian distance running isn't all about them.

With their spunky race tactics and their flannel pajamas, Canadians are just downright adorable.

What I want to know is how many of you people saying "no DQ, it's entertaining!" were arguing that Gabe Grunewald should have been DQed for an unintentional heel-clip.

Hm?

no longer a fan of the gryphs wrote:

SB wrote:

P.S. If you're still talking about Cacofonix, you really haven't followed the Canadian boards in very long time.

I just remember that he was very well-spoken and seemed to be in-the-know about what was happening in Canadian track and field, back in the old days of TNFNorth. I occasionally checked out MileSplit, when they took over from Moulton, but nobody ever posted there. I still check out Trackie every now and then to see what's happening in the sport these days.

Sorry about the Aspergers comment - though it wasn't really an insult coming from me, as I've scored 30 on the test for it, which is borderline.

You're right. Caconfonix was great, whoever he was.

And I didn't take the Aspergers thing as an insult. In the context, I just thought you might have meant Tourettes (the "lack of a filter" bullshit someone else tried to float to explain my occasional outrage).

Anyway, one last thing: For those of you who found this crap entertaining, you probably weren't considering what it was like to be on the receiving end of the drama. And it would be entirely in keeping with Guelph's insularity to NOT consider whether the whole thing was entertaining for those who didn't have an effing clue what was going on till it was too late. I'm sure THEY found it riveting from start to finish (in fact, one of the guys involved had to nerve to declare it "one of the most exciting 3000m I've ever been involved in"!) The greatest offence of the Guelph leadership: Turning otherwise decent and well meaning athletes into selfish dickheads, who think doing it for "the team" excuses just about anything.

P.S. I am actually wearing a plaid shirt as we speak. It's cold up here.

themanontherun wrote:

The Guelph runner who had a slower PR but got in on placing as a direct benefit of the dirty tactics should be DQ'ed as well; not good enough to get in on his own, doesn't deserve to be at the next level. Who cares if the perpetrator of the actual impeding was DQ'ed, he's already into the final. This does nothing to change the important result. Anything shy of the lesser runner on the Guelph team getting DQ as well is a shame.

AND the guy still didn't get in because he finished outside the top 2 AND was ranked 13th overall (top-12 or Auto, whatever is slower and in this case, 12th)

SB - Steve Boyd. Why do you always wind up taking over threads? Is your ego that big that you always have to have the last word on ANY subject?

You have turned the Trackie forum into your own personal "bully" pit. Even though I respect what you do as a coach and even your insights at times, as another poster said - you have no filter. If you weren't so arrogant you might even be able to take a step back and recognize that yourself. Alas, that ship sailed long ago.

Sadly you seem to do all this under the guise of being a "fan", as if that justifies your behaviour toward others. I would call you the ultimate narcissist, but then you would just go on and on and on... defending your position, when the best thing you could do for yourself and others is just to shut up sometimes.

I say this with the sincerest intentions for your well-being.

PS - the "crazy guy" was not Moulton of that I am almost certain. Not his style.

I don't defend what Guelph did, I don't really even have all that much respect to their College program - Speed River is another story however as that group is trying to resurrect a moribund Canadian post-grad development structure that has basically given up on developing world-class runners. In fact I have little respect for the CIS in general as there is a tendency to put mediocrity on a pedestal (like at Mac), then justify the lack of development as that CIS is the priority and that is not their responsibility to develop our future Olympians. Then whose is it? That is a rhetorical question - please, for god's sake, do NOT try and answer it!!

Hey this is like old times. Bystander, cacofonix... I think caco may actually be the guy who ruled on the DQ. Probably should have been more DQs in that race, and yeah there was some dirty stuff that maybe ought to stick to the coaches and program, but it sure was fun to watch.

former oua er wrote:

Um, yeah wrote:

To whom did they protest to within this 30 minute window?

To the jury of appeal.

None of what quebec28 is saying has been under dispute.

Well then, they don't understand the rules.

If they are complaining about another athlete, they have 30 minutes after the posting of the results to file their initial protest.

Once the jury has reached their decision, there is no further appeal unless they are bringing new material to the table. No one has suggested they were doing anything more than just asking that the decision be revisited.

used to be bystander,

many Canadians have some knowledge of just one, perhaps two, issues that relate back to the Guelph/Speed River leadership, and just let it slide. Some people, such as Oldster, have considerable knowledge about many issues over the past two years relating back to the Guelph/Speed River leadership - enough that it is clearly painting a bigger picture that most people are not, yet, aware of.

We need people like Boyd to continue to stand up and speak out against these things, otherwise Guelph will keep getting away with it.

SB wrote:

Anyway, one last thing: For those of you who found this crap entertaining, you probably weren't considering what it was like to be on the receiving end of the drama. And it would be entirely in keeping with Guelph's insularity to NOT consider whether the whole thing was entertaining for those who didn't have an effing clue what was going on till it was too late. I'm sure THEY found it riveting from start to finish (in fact, one of the guys involved had to nerve to declare it "one of the most exciting 3000m I've ever been involved in"!) The greatest offence of the Guelph leadership: Turning otherwise decent and well meaning athletes into selfish dickheads, who think doing it for "the team" excuses just about anything.

SB,

Since I launched the "this was entertaining" stream into this thread, I will respond to this.

As a fan watching a sporting event (especially one where I am not pulling for anyone particular), why would I care about the feelings of the guy who lost or won? I am there to be entertained. It is your job as a coach to care about your athletes and to work the refs to insure what you consider an even playing field. Again, I am just there to be entertained. The wide world of sports is full of bad calls, unsportsmanlike conduct, dirty tactics and "bad" teams. But, that is entertainment.

On an side-note, I am not sure how Guelph can have a reputation for doing this kind of stuff and you can claim--as an opposing coach--that your athletes didn't know what was going on until it was too late.

I will applaud you getting on here to defend your kids and fight for them. But, I hope you can appreciate the non-invested fan perspective.

Mundus

Ah, yes, bystander, the coward's coward. Never did have the balls to tell me your name, did you?

Good thing this isn't personal for you, otherwise you might to REALLY overboard with the invective!

Because this was over the top, even by there standards. Nothing much anyone could have done about it with prior knowledge in any case, when they had 4 guys in the race.

But, by "this kind of stuff" I wasn't referring to ethically questionable racing tactics. I meant pushing the rules to their limit, ethics be damned. Long story, with which I would not bore an American observer.

You know what's more entertaining than basketball? Watching Ron Artest run through the stands throwing punches at fans. It doesn't make it a good thing

Since Guelph are such supporters of team tactics, I guess they couldn't protest too much if Laval sacrificed their second qualifier for CIS (who likely won't score any points anways) to trip and spike all the Guelph athletes, improving CPT's chances of victory.

Hahaha Moulton, you're BUSTED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Get some self respect man! You and DST are weasels and the most detested guys in Canadian running. Why do you think most of the elites belong to other groups? Canadian Salazars. What an embarrassment.

I'm not Canadian and don't know the rules of this league but if this happened at the NCAA Championships, there would be some disqualified athletes.

People, it's not about what is entertaining or what would make for more popular races. If you want change then lobby for it to your governing body until change is given. Otherwise, what we are left with is that we must abide by the rules as they are presently written.

In the NCAA a runner may not impede the progress of another athlete, this rule was broken early on in the buildup when the 3 Guelph runners went to the front... the last one cut in too soon and could have been subject to dq upon protest. Much of the race was what I call "normal" aggressive assertion of position. HOWEVER, it becomes more and more obvious that the intent was to impede other runners from passing. This is proved by the athletes from Guelph who look over their shoulder, then deviate, unnecessarily many feet for no other reason than to impede the runners behind them. (if you don't need to go to lane 3 to give yourself a chance to pass then doing so will look suspect if there is a runner behind you trying to get by.)

It could be that the Coach said to his athletes: "don't let anyone by you no matter what".... then the athlete misinterpreted the proper/legal way of doing so. That is all on the coach. If you don't explain legal racing tactics to your athletes and train them to do it within the means of the rules, then you are subject to criticism.

In this case, the coach has disrespected himself by showing he is either a cheat, or a poor teacher of the rules and racing tactics. Either way, its a disgrace and there is no room for it as the rules currently read.

Rat in my beer eh. wrote:

In this case, the coach has disrespected himself by showing he is either a cheat, or a poor teacher of the rules and racing tactics. Either way, its a disgrace and there is no room for it as the rules currently read.

From reading several threads on the Canada message board Trackie, there appears to be a pattern of rules or criteria not being followed that benefits this Guelph/Speed River group. You could be polite and just say the Guelph coaches are okay with aggressively pushing the edge of what is legal; however, as we see in this race, when that is your mindset it is quite possible for the athletes or coaches go over the edge and break the rules.