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Antonio:
It is true that I forgot to mention the great Jose Regalo, who was a formidable cross country runner for many years. He also ran a 13:15 track 5000 which was pretty good for a man who preferred the cross circuit to the oval.
It is claimed that Regalo never trained more than one hour a day, and never did doubles, training only once a day. Do you believe this to be true, Mr Cabral?
Another runner I used to admire was Henrique Crisostomo, who was a small, efficient runner and ran well on the country and the roads. Please tell us which websites to look on to read about Portuguese distance runners/results/stats/profiles.
Quit teasing us and get to Norpath's training! Pretty please...
You've got to wonder how anybody managed to get born in Germany in 1942. You'd think that any guy young and healthy enough for sex would have been off at a front somewhere. Obviously someone was still having normal lives, but it's hard to conceive.
Good mention that one to relate 1942 birth to the second World War and German culture.
What RUNARA that lives in German thinks about this my idea?
That made me think more and more that van Aaken method and Harald Norporth that´s derived from the german culture – not really but some “counterculture”.
If you consider that “interval training” that´s an elitist method, then van Aaken LSD endurance method that´s “non-elitist” one, the other face of the same german “temperament”.
About 1942 Norporth birth. That made me remember one particularly Van Morrison song
(hello Hodgie-san ! That´s another Van but from the english language, then van that´s not exclusive from german language - LOL ).
Van Morrison that´s one of my favourite song writers. Date of Birth: August 31, 1945.
Ther´s one song “Wild Children” from the 1973 Album Hard Nose the Highway also one of my favourites from all his discographie that try to describe that “war ambience” from another angle than German angle.
http://www.harbour.sfu.ca/~hayward/van/van.html
Wild Children (Van Morrison )
We were the War Children
Born 1945
When all the soldiers came marching home
Love looks in their eye
Tennessee Tennessee Williams
Let your inspiration flow
Let it be around when we hear the sound
When the spring time rivers flow when the rivers flow
Rod Steiger and Marlon Brando
Standing with their heads bowed on the side
Crying like a baby thinking about the time
James Dean took that fatal ride, took that ride
Tennessee Tennessee Tennessee Tennessee Williams
Let your inspiration go
Will you be around to hear the sound
When the spring time rivers flow, rivers flow
And Steiger and Marlon Brando
Standing with their heads bowed on the side
Crying like a baby thinking about the time
James Dean took that fatal ride, took that ride
And we were the Wild Children
Back in 1945
When all the soldiers came marching home
Love looks in their eyes, in their eyes
(the end)
Now, what do you think if that´s an Italian coach that did born in that period - during second world war ? Would he be a “Wild Children also” ?
Antonio,
I saw Arthur Lydiard last night, his lecture was well received here in the Boston area.
There was historic film footage, a slide presentation outlining the Lydiard method for the 21st century, and a hill training video.
At 87, Arthur looks great and is as feisty as ever. An icon.
Nothing to do with anything, perhaps you would like this one as well:
http://www.harbour.sfu.ca/~hayward/van/van.html
On Hyndford Street
Take me back, take me way, way, way back
On Hyndford Street
Where you could feel the silence at half past eleven
On long summer nights
As the wireless played Radio Luxembourg
And the voices whispered across Beechie River
In the quietness as we sank into restful slumber in the silence
And carried on dreaming, in God
And walks up Cherry Valley from North Road Bridge, railway line
On sunny summer afternoons
Picking apples from the side of the tracks
That spilled over from the gardens of the houses on Cyprus Avenue
Watching the moth catcher working the floodlights in the evenings
And meeting down by the pylons
Playing round Mrs. Kelly's lamp
Going out to Holywood on the bus
And walking from the end of the lines to the seaside
Stopping at Fusco's for ice cream
In the days before rock 'n' roll
Hyndford Street, Abetta Parade
Orangefield, St. Donard's Church
Sunday six-bells, and in between the silence there was conversation
And laughter, and music and singing, and shivers up the back of the neck
And tuning in to Luxembourg late at night
And jazz and blues records during the day
Also Debussy on the third programme
Early mornings when contemplation was best
Going up the Castlereagh hills
And the cregagh glens in summer and coming back
To Hyndford Street, feeling wondrous and lit up inside
With a sense of everlasting life
And reading Mr. Jelly Roll and Big Bill Broonzy
And "Really The Blues" by "Mezz" Mezzrow
And "Dharma Bums" by Jack Kerouac
Over and over again
And voices echoing late at night over Beechie River
And it's always being now, and it's always being now
It's always now
Can you feel the silence?
On Hyndford Street where you could feel the silence
At half past eleven on long summer nights
As the wireless played Radio Luxembourg
And the voices whispered across Beechie River
And in the quietness we sank into restful slumber in silence
And carried on dreaming in God.
Hodgie-san-wrong-again !
That´s with that kind of tests as your sentence “Nothing to do with anything” that you want make me believe ther´s nothing behind and beyond the words.
I say to you “all to do with all”.
Post-war then Tennessee Williams in architecture and “Rebel without a cause” from Nicholas Ray and East of Eden" and "Giant “ from actor´s studio that same than Marlon Brando did study. In literature ther´s “On the road” by Jack Kerouac, that´s Greenwich Village, that´s May 68, that´s Sartre, that´s D. Juan and Castaneda, but that´s the Beat Generation, and if that´s beat that´s jazz, that´s Big Bill Broonzy, that´s jazz, Miles David, and Debussy and Jim Hendrix. That´s poetry that´s Alain Ginsberg “Wow” That´s Dharma, that´s Buddha, and that´s “Born to Be wild” that´s Easy that´s easy that´s Rider; that´s Easy Rider that´s hippie generation. That´s sixties and then seventies, That´s Martin, that´s King that´s Ali. That´s Radio Luxemburg – free in that ship boat; that´s Woodstock festival, if that´s hippie that´s Frank, Frank who? Frank Shorter the hippie of Miami Beach. That´s the Graduate, that´s If that´s Shorter That´s German birth and GERMAN
Munchen marathon win, that´s Bill, that’s road, that´s road run, that´s Hodgie, that´s Hodgie-san, that´s run, run, run, that´s Runner´s World. That´s Arthur Lydiard, That´s van Aaken, that´s van Morrison. That´s Nothing to do with anything that´s when All to do with All.
87 years old what a beauty !
And we arrived to the 4th year, from the 3rd Millennium – 21th century. And Harald Norporth training schedule?
Ghost,
This is a good portuguese running site.
I had a van once. It was a German one. I often did long distances in it, frequently as intervals from one mechanic to the next.
Antonio say:
>Hodgie-san-wrong-again !
That´s with that kind of tests as your sentence “Nothing to do with anything” that you want make me believe ther´s nothing behind and beyond the words.
I say to you “all to do with all”.<
I wasn't talking about the song lyrics, you weirdo! I like your summation, though, very kerouaquackcian.
Jack was from my hometown of Lowell Mass. Check out his published lettters books, very interesting reading.
I've given up on Harald.
Antonio,
Ah, looks like we are getting off track.....(pun intended)....or maybe not......maybe we are closer to the "path" than ever? It's hard to tell at this point ( ;-) ) but I DO like your "all to do with all" trot through 20th century pop culture and art.....your very own sort of zen poem it looks like to me ....? Yes, I like it, but who do we "give credit/blame" for inspiring this off-the-beaten-path tangent ? Well, Hodgie-san (for his nickname), and me for my possibly over-analytical and presumptious explanation of that nickname. I think that might sum up how we got to we are on this thread. But since Holden Caulfield did not mind tangents, neither do I. (and Antonio, since you like "all to do with all", here is another pop reference/version ( a more modern one than some names mentioned in your history) of this idea: "all in all, is all we all are." That's Nirvana......)
Back on track-
We are studying (thanks to Antonio) Van Aaken and Harald Norporth at this point, and it is enlightening. But I have some questions.
1) For all his ability and greatness, Norporth never won the "BIG ONE" and was never ranked #1.......why? Did he lack the kick of some of the other more speed oriented athletes??? Bob Schul was an Igloi disciple, and that meant speed virtually EVERY DAY (and sometimes twice a day). Maybe that type of training gave him the kick to take away gold from Norporth.......?
2) Earlier some people seemed to disparage Pre's attitude of pushing it daily in training very often in favor of this "Van Aaken method." I still see Pre beating Norporth in their very biggest meeting (and running one hell of a gutsy race.....really going for gold). Who knows what Pre could have done if he had not died so young.....maybe better than Norporth's best time of 13:20....maybe a gold medal. Schul and Dellinger and Pre....those are 3 Americans in the 5k from Norporth's era that ran as well as he (as far as Olympic performances, PR's, and World or National Records). Let's not brush aside such athletes performances in relation to what Norporth did(not that anyone necessarily was)
3) On an earlier thread, Antonio, you seemed to take exception to the fact that Lydiard was getting so much credit as "the inventor" of modern training or the "inventor" of lots of volume of moderate paced mileage. I agreed with much of your comments. You seemed to suggest that Van Aaken had these ideas prior to Lydiard......and here we are on this thread. But doesn't Van Aaken suggest in the interview posted here that several top runners were ALREADY following this concept (of lots of volume of moderately paced miles), but it was the masses that misunderstood what the top runners were doing?? He mentions Zatopek as doing all those intervals, but points out that much of those intervals were really at a fairly RELAXED pace, so that the key to what Zatopek was doing was two-fold: 1) lots of mileage volume 2) not TOO MUCH all-out lactic-acid inducing running (because the pace of repeat 400's was fairly relaxed for him).
SO......therefore, what we have is Van Aaken as also not the inventor of high-volume moderate-paced miles in training , but the BEST INTERPRETER of what top runners were doing at his time, correct? And he "re-invents"/builds off of these concepts (as all coaches do) into his own system, which involved less repeats/intervals than what Zatopek did, and more steady-paced mileage. That is the way it appears to me at least.
3a) And if so, isn't Igloi more of the direct descedant of the oft-misunderstood (apparently) "Zatopek" method of high volumes of moderately-paced repeats? Igloi preached CONSTANT 100-300 meter (mostly, there were various other repeat distances, but the LION'S SHARE were under 300 meters....in fact often 100-200) repeats broken up by short , very easy jog/walk intervals. These were run at varying intensities, but most often NOT on the watch (they were run by the Hodgie-san "feel" method). By shortening the repeat distance from the Zatopek 400 distance, this allowed 3 things: 1) it made it even more likely that the runner would not go into Oxygen debt (be flooded with lactic acid) 2) allowed a slightly quicker pace 3) possibly even allowed a greater # of miles run, since the breaks/rest intervals came so quickly. The runner was always backing off just before he was running above his threshold.
This was the Igloi method: FAST running ALL the time, but still allowing for HIGH volumes of running because the repeats were for such short distances/durations that the Heart Rates of his athletes could recover before each repeat thus allow them not to climb permanently (for the workout) above Lactic Acid Steady State threshold.
Another method, another thread. But a method that produced NUMEROUS world class athletes (in Hungary and the USA). Something to think about (and compare and contrast) as we delve deeper into the Van Aaken method
I would point out that when Pre and Norpoth met at the Munich Olympics it was probably not as big a race for Norpoth as for Prefontaine. It was his third Olympics to Pre's first. He already had an Olympic medal.
I will agree that Igloi got some fantastic performances out of his athletes. But Norpoth was still an internationalist in 1974 and Bob Schul was done fairly soon after Tokyo. I don't know if there is a correlation or not, but I'd have had a hard time doing Igloi's training for a decade, but you can do van Aaken's or Lydiard's almost forever.
Mention "kerouaquackcian" to me that´s as you are "carrying water by the river".
Never give up on Norporth.
Answer to questions 1) and 2)
You are right, but don´t dispraise Norpoth talent. But I never said that Norporth is best than Pre or worst than Pre. I simply said that he did win over Pre a few occasion and that upset Pre a lot.
For me the mention of Harald Norporth is more to demonstrate the value of van Aaken training, that´s effective as a training method. I see Norpoth as a van Aaken icon and van Aaken flag.
Do you know any training method that is known or admitted as valid, that made a “school” that have no runner to show in the concrete experimental terrain his own that you can improve by training along that method? I don´t. Do you know any coach that are considered without a runner ? That´s why I mention Norporth, not to prove that he is the best or a winner.
At least, Norporth with the van Aaken method, he did 13:20 and come close to Bob Schul, ok Schul did win, no way to broke his Olympic win, but he never did 13:20.
One my idea is that winner that´s running main goal. But a good chrono needs talent and good training also.
Now, to speculate what would have done Pre, it seems to me wrong as a exercise.
But let´s me tell you 2 details about Pre.
First his “temperament” that´s quite similar top Carlos Lopes. They try his best in any circumstance. They were hungry to win. When they did loose they feel bad, really bad. That´s with that temperament that the champions are made – that mentality. They don´t want excuses when they lost. Le me tell one detail about Lopes. In all his career if the pace is slower than his capacity, he quickly move top the front. No matter what´s the race. Similar to Pre. Once he did a local race, 2 weeks after he did marathon WR. That road race ther´s no money involved. But since the start Lopes did push as he was competing in any Olympics. In the end he said that ws tough than the marathon world record ! The second runner did some more 4 minutes than Lopes !
Besides I think that if yiou want to speculate about Steve Prefontaine future what would be? I tell you that in my opinion that would not be in the 5000m but in the 10000m. In his serious first try Pre did 27.43.6 in Eugene in 1974/04/27 – beeing the 6th all time best performance in 10000m.
27.30.80 Dave Bedford GRB 1973/07/13
27.38.35 Lasse Viren FIN 1972/09/03
27.39.58 Emiel Puttemans BEL 1972/09/03
27.39.89 Ronald Clarke AUS 1965/07/14
27.40.96 Miruts Yifter ETH 1972/09/03
Answer to QUESTIONS 3)
Lance, what comes first the egg or the chicken ?
Do you know Boyle-Marriot physics law ? Scientific community get the conclusion that Boyle and Marriot one from england the other one from france with separate experiences they discover the same independently.
That´s the same problem with who invented the “jog” or “training in moderate paces”, whatever.
In my answer above, I said that a method can be difused and accepted if you have no one use as a Icon or as a flag. Van Aaken did – Norpoth and Manfred Steffny, Lydiard did how many – Murray, Snell, Dick Taylor, etc. Bowerman did. Igloy did.
If I call your attention to van Aaken when you were giving tooo much credits to Lydiard that he may share with others my original idea that´s this one – you overrate Lydiard among all the rest, that´s the same with Coe because their original language that´s english expression. Now, who was the one that did invented I doný know really.
Do you know Boyle-Marriot physics law ?
Please, read once again the reasons I consider that van Aaken is a “modern” coach. The main difference among Van and other coaches, that´s not miles or moderate pace or even aerobics. In my opinion is that in the pace you did train aerobics and then you will come to the track and you did ex:20X200m in 27-28seconds or 15X400m for 64sec but that runner that´s a 14:20 runner or 3:54 runner. Lots of volume in fast reps – too much faster than race pace. But Norporth a 13:20 runner did 30X200 in 32-36sec or 15X400m in 64-72sec. The pace in the specifics are closer and closer to pace race.
Besides, van Aaken as Tinman points, that´s also dietetics and a life style. In a earlier post people ask about skip the breakfast and the ineterst to fast. I´m not an expert but I just question myself about Ramadan. To be some weeks fasting during daylight and eat oinly in the night. Those who do that kind of faster they get thiir weight down a lot.
Norpoth had a 100+ page 'book' about training, injury prevention and treatment, insights etc. (as best I can remember) ... available on the internet for downloading. I can't remember the websight address as it was several years ago that I dl'd it. I'll see if I can find.
Bump..please post the link if you can find it again. Thanks.
Antonio,
Thanks for your reply. I agree with your first points of the post-
a) that "schools of training" or "training methods" always have some particular athlete(s) associated with them (because if not, then how can one say the method is successful? They can't of course). And Van Aaken method and Norporth as disciple(among others) is a great example. We all appreciate you discussing it and CAN'T WAIT for the training logs (and other examples of course are: Igloi method and Schul (among others) as disciple, Lydiard method and Snell(among others) as disciple, and Coe/Horwill methods and Coe as disciple, etc.)
b) You wrote about Pre:
" First his “temperament” that´s quite similar to Carlos Lopes. They try his best in any circumstance. They were hungry to win. When they did loose they feel bad, really bad. That´s with that temperament that the champions are made – that mentality. They don´t want excuses when they lost."
I find this comparison of Pre and Lopes' hunger for victory very interesting. Such hunger, in my opinion, is an intangible that can't be taught: you either have it or you don't. But what I also find interesting about Lopes is this: you mention that when he is in a race, no matter how unimportant, he PUSHES himself to his utmost. He is programmed to do so, and it can not be otherwise for him it seems. BUT....(and this is the interesting part), I know that you previously mentioned that in WORKOUTS (not races), he would often be behind runners that he could normally beat in races. Now part of the reason for this is, I assume, because some of those workouts were more "speed" oriented workouts, not Lopes' strongest point. But, I also assume that the other reason for this is because LOPES KNEW THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A WORKOUT AND A RACE. Would you say that is true, and significant?? Clearly Lopes did not have the need to push himself to his utmost in EVERY workout, and to WIN every workout.....he must of held just a bit in reserves during many training sessions(as runners usually should). But on race day.....that was when he held NOTHING back. Would say that analysis is correct? And the only reason I point it out is because it is often the case that runners who have the intense hunger and desire that you mentioned (like Pre and Lopes) often have trouble turning that desire "off" or down a bit in training(as Lopes apparently was able to do).
One prime example of this was Alberto Salazar. From everthing I have read, this man knew only one gear: all out. He PUNISHED himself constantly in training and racing, and early on it produced GREAT results (American records in 5k, 10k, and Marathon and a just missing a world x-c victory by 1 second). And you talk about hunger and desire for victory? I don't think there was a runner who ever lived had more of that hunger than Alberto.....really. I mean, name another international caliber runner who came VERY CLOSE TO DYING TWICE after races!?!? (once in Falmouth road race, once in Boston Marathon). Salazar literally pushed his body beyond its normal limits as few have done. BUT.....he couldn't turn that off. He hammered, and hammered, and hammered his training. He literally ruined himself in this manner. Let me share a story about Alberto:
I will never forget once turning on the TV around the time of the 1984 Olympics ( I am not sure if it was after or before) and seeing the camera focusing on the legs of a runner jogging around the track. I had no idea who it was, or what this program was. But my first honest reaction to seeing those legs and that stride was: this is some person with a disease (MS or something) or deficiency of some sort, because one leg is moving differently than the other, and the other leg is twisted awkardly, and this is someone who has great trouble running. I was SHOCKED as the camera moved upwards and saw that is was Alberto (they were doing som feature on him). I always knew he had an unorthodox stride, but this was insane. He had clearly damaged his legs so much, and was so compensating for various aches, injuries and pains in such a manner that his stride was COMPLETELY messed up. Of course this was right at the beginning of the period where he did run successfully for many, many years until his very strange, but wonderful, Comrades marathon resurrection.
I only bring this Alberto story into the mix of this discussion to point out: somewhat controlled, intelligent hunger for victory like Lopes had is a fantastic quality to have. What Alberto had a completely obsessive drive....sort of became a disease. I believe Gerry Lindgren too had this "disease." And it is a shame, because both of those runners had more than enough talent and drive to become Gold Medalists, but they never did. But Lopes did......and at age 37 too! Alberto was almost finished at what age? 23 or 24? Lindgren had his best years before or right around 20? Hunger and desire must be balanced with patience and intelligence.
Back to Van Aaken and Norporth, both who first-hand knew the value of patience, and not KILLING oneself in every workout. (and I will comment on your questions to me of why do you consider Van Aaken method "modern.")
One of my last sentences should have been:
"Of course this was right at the beginning of the period where he did NOT run successfully for many, many years until his very strange, but wonderful, Comrades marathon resurrection."
Lance
You got it ! 100% agree with your last post.
Lopes did superworkouts mostly fast continuous runs and Long reps (1000m to 3000m track sets), but in the short reps not so much - his spek weakness - but he try harder in that short reps - you shall train you weak points.
But Lopes in some days didn´t train hard, just slow, and if we say that mostly are hard days, that´s because a few occasions nobody sees him- he simply take 1 to 3 days rest by his own responsability in any season period !
The case is that Lopes was the pacience to wait for thw 30s and to train intensively and extensively in a season progressive atitude.
Th case of the average american runner they can´t wait. They want to be the best right now. But running that´s not that kind of sport. Aerobic condition needs time and maturity ans steady improvement, according each one talent.
The case of Salazar - as far as i know that´s paradigmatic yes ! A junior that did 140 miles a week ! He did limit his career duration. I think that when he give up competing he said "now i´m gonna train as a middle distance runner and not a long distance runner". But that´s where he might start and not end.
What have done that past cross talents as Eric Hulst or Rich Kimball, since both win junior WCC. Theywere lost early for the running as tghe talents they might have been !
As far as i know people in school and hogh school they train harder and wronger than they should. Most of "academic coaches" don´t have no knoledge and no sensibity to train the runner´s properly. But the have a a great formation in physiology - and they train wrongly by physilogic principles - a VO2 workout, a LT workout...
In another thread some of you say that Brad Hudson can´t be a good coach because he have no academic qualification. I laugh a lot. The american coaches that have great academic qualifications are the poor ones really.
Antonio say:
>Th case of the average american runner they can´t wait. They want to be the best right now. But running that´s not that kind of sport. Aerobic condition needs time and maturity ans steady improvement, according each one talent.<
Antonio,
At the recent Lydiard lecture in Massachusetts, Lydiard was asked his opinion, what is the largest factor in the lack of American success in distance running?
Without hesitation Arthur say, "too much anaerobic running."
In other words, no patience to develop the aerobic capacity which is unlimited.
Regarding Van Achen, there is a paragraph in his new Autobiography, "Master Coach" which mentions him.
Chapter, "Far & Wide" p. 189:
(In 1979)
".....I was invited to go to a distance running conference in Duisburg in Germany, so I flew up there for a couple of days and then went back to South Africa.
I met Woldemar Gerschler and Herbert Reindell for the first time on this trip.
They were the experts on anaerobic repetitions. Dr. Ernest Van Aachen, who believed in my type of training, was also there.
He was the man who really got women's marathon running going.
The meeting was also the start of worldwide interest in our training methods."
Below is a link to a document written by Amby Burfoot on the evolution of distance running methods.
I thought that you might find it interesting if you have not already seen it before:
http://www.angelfire.com/rock/running/essays/evolution1.html