Frank Shorter in the NYTimes basically convicts all of Kenya for doping

perfusion of yellow wrote:

How about we just assume everyone is guilty until they can prove their innocence?

We already do, that's why testing is mandatory. It's not a matter of law, it's a matter of sport as entertainment. It's show business, and the company in charge of the show can expect the actors to prove they fit the bill.

There's no law preventing an alternate league without doping control where dopers could do whatever they wanted. But nobody would make any money competing in it. Nobody would consider their records official. Fans wouldn't buy it, they'll only buy doping-controlled athletics. It's market reality not a matter of rights.

Let's not forget the extra first class plane tickets / plane tickets, sent ahead to athletes for the athlete+1, when plane tickets could be redeemed back into cash...

An athlete might receive two tickets to fly to the meet, and only use one, cashing in the other.

And this at a time when the majority of Eastern Block athletes were full time state sponsored, drug using pros...

DC Wonk wrote:

I read the NYT article and most people are thinking the same thing about the Kenyans. They produce many elite runners, doped or not, but add doping, it's hard to see how they will lose in the middle/longer distances.

And not get flamed here, but note that the first NYT article on the Jeptoo failed drug test also noted that one of the favorite LetsRun "gods", Sammy Wanjiru, was also using the same Italian Dr. as Jeptoo. Doesn't mean he was necessarily doping, but a small clique of Italian and Spanish doctors seem to be involved in nearly all doping of pro runners and pro cyclists.

Let's also note that it wasn't too many years ago, that if anyone posted the very idea that a Kenyan was doping, the thread was deleted, and trolls of "racism" bandied about.

It could have appeared that which ever Johnson visited Kenyan came back with some wide eyed naive love for downtrodden 3rd world runners, assuming they all must be clean.

How much as changed in 2.8 years.

This has to be the tip of the iceberg, considering the hoards of African athletes who never had WADA knock on their door at a time that would piss off Nick Symmonds...in order to get a urine sample.

What happened to the cries of "Kenyans couldn't afford drugs / doctors"?

Epo cheating has to do with human greed, as we are now seeing.

Shorted had a good plan.

As for the Frank Shorter hater...yeah, Shorter could be a rude stuck up prig back in the day...he also could be a classy guy...the swing between the two we now know due to his interview some time back, is probably explainable by the horrid abuse he suffered at the hands of his father...

All the Kenyans cheat..since young also transfusion

.. LOL WHO use to live there and question friends there for WHILE know. All what

they get and everything is easy to buy there.. ALSO many DOPE get in Africa by Managers

BUT. in USA and rest of Europe lot of "FAMOUS" runners are DOPING to including CANADA.. LOL how someone with PR 2h28 under RUN inside country PR and outside almost 3Hours.. (Just to no come in top 10 ans no been checked..) in USA is lot girls too.. only RUN when Race Directors and ELITE Coordinators (famous in New England) never will catch his FAVORITES Athletes.. LOL nobody is full

Mundus Vult wrote:

Vincente,

I don't have a problem with what Frank did. I have a problem that he crusades against "doping" when he was a cheater himself.

There will be a time--sooner than you think--when we will say "it wasn't long ago that you couldn't use EPO and supplements."

Your point is my main point: what is "fair" in sports is an evolving notion. There will be a day (I hope soon) when recognize that it is fair to allow professionals to ingest and inject what they deem safe.

MVD

The difference is that there is nothing morally wrong with an athlete getting paid. Actually the reverse. There was a story once about a boxer watching a bout in the crowd, He was called up as a reserve to fight for another fighter who was ill at the last mintue. He insisted on getting paid up front. The promoter said don't worry you will get your purse after as normal to which the boxer replied 'I'm not paying to watch myself'!

Shorter helped to craft the system that, back in the early 80s, that first allowed athletes to win money and retain amateur status by putting the money in a trust until retirement.

He, Rodgers, and Myer were very outspoken about the need to end the era of shamateurism, that the sport, like baseball/basketball/hockey/football, needed to move to a professional model.

Along with the increase of money, comes the increase in the motivation to drug. Although even there was not a single penny involved, there would be some people who would drug in order to be more successful in athletics. But when some people look at the option of riches versus poverty (for them and their families) the willingness to drug up becomes readily understandable.

To combat drugging, the payments should not be made to athletes until a two or three year period after the race - with the understanding that if they test positive in the interim, they forfeit their prize money.

Coach Orlando Souza wrote:

in USA and rest of Europe lot of "FAMOUS" runners are DOPING to including CANADA..

What does this mean?

it means the writer is very uneducated.

It's also worth noting that amateur athletes were allowed to accept money for "legitimate" expenses without being very clear what "legitimate" meant. Ron Clarke made a pile of money from his races mostly doing the tricks with plane tickets that you describe. But he'll tell you that he never actually made any money from the sport because he needed to take time off from work when he raced overseas so he was merely recouping his lost salary. There's no comparable murky area with PEDs. You're either taking a banned substance or not.

Shorter's article does not accuse all Kenyans, it just indicates suspicion of some Kenyans. That seems to be correct since some top Kenyans (not all) have tested positive. So have some athletes from other countries.

Let's try to think carefully here. When a top athlete who dominates a sport tests positive for PEDs, that tends to suggest that a broader underlying problem may exist. When this happens many times, there is increasing circumstantial evidence. When dozens of unconnected athletes in many sports in many countries put up top performances then test positive, there is strong evidence that doping is widespread.

If you care about stopping doping (some do not I know) you cannot ignore all this evidence. Strong anti-doping protocols are needed in all countries to address the problem.

I note that when some random 4 hour marathoner is suspected of cutting a course, an army of indignant runners investigate for days, review photos, check years of old results, and berate the person for weeks or months.

If Jeptoo had won several marathons by cutting the course, would we blow that off? Would we say things like "everyone cuts the course" or "these photos are not really her" or "we should legalize cutting the course" or "Kenyans don't benefit from cutting courses" or "It's true that when Americans run marathons they are filmed to make sure they don't cut the course. We don't film Kenyans, but even though we have these cases of Kenyans cutting the course we're going to ignore that because it probably doesn't mean anything."

good point.

madmandoc wrote:

We don't film Kenyans

We do.

All this noise is window dressing the IAAF, IOC, WMM and what ever other alphabet soup organization does not give a rip about about PEDs, Their pronouncements are for PR only. All they care about is what generates PR and crowds ie money to be made. It is a fallacy to beleive they are concerned about the athlete's health.

Diack's main goal when he was in charge was to lift his fellow brothers and sisters out of poverty , and turn a blind eye to PEDs.

A two league format is a naive pipe dream as the dopers will find their way into the "clean" league.

If the powers that be want to get the PEDs out of the sport implement what Shorter proposed years ago.

If caught:

1. Both samples positive automatic 6 year ban with no appeal. This takes them out out the OG and WC cycle , no sponsor would want to market the unmarketable.

2. Caught a second time gone for good lifetime ban with no appeal process available if both come back positive.

In both cases both samples have to be beyond a shadow of a doubt positive with two seperate independent labs doing the testing and reporting to an agency completely independent of the above alphabet soup organizations.

3. Automatic pay back of all winnings.

4. Legal avenues for the "clean" athletes who were deprived of earnings and acclaim they rightfully earned.

The penalties have to be so severe the athlete would really have to weight the risk of getting caught.

To those who have in the past called me an idiot as their only response and inferred I am a racist. I don't care what color , what country etc these cheaters come from they should not be receiving your blind acclaim. Unfortunately we live in an an era where PED use is a reality.

Guess which league or division will get the dopers and Olympics. It will be the clean one. In an endurance sport like marathon running doping isn't as obvious as bodybuilding or even sprinting. All you can look at is form and remarkable improvements on that. A doped up bodybuilder is so much more massive than a clean one, even a doped up sprinter is much more vascular and muscular than a clean one.

Methinks a few of these board writers are possessed by the ghost of Avery Brundage.......

I might have understood this better if you had typed it in your native language.... and I only speak English.

Coach Orlando Souza wrote:

All the Kenyans cheat..since young also transfusion

.. LOL WHO use to live there and question friends there for WHILE know. All what

they get and everything is easy to buy there.. ALSO many DOPE get in Africa by Managers

BUT. in USA and rest of Europe lot of "FAMOUS" runners are DOPING to including CANADA.. LOL how someone with PR 2h28 under RUN inside country PR and outside almost 3Hours.. (Just to no come in top 10 ans no been checked..) in USA is lot girls too.. only RUN when Race Directors and ELITE Coordinators (famous in New England) never will catch his FAVORITES Athletes.. LOL nobody is full

Agreed, Shorter is not accusing all Kenyans. Back when Frank was doing color commentary on the various networks, he was all respectful of their great accomplishments.

I've always admired Shorter for his passion against doping in sport. He feels, as I think most people on these boards feel, that without strict doping controls elite distance running is a joke.

All of these comments are good but everyone is just beating around the bush as usual and speculating.

Whenever big money $$$$ is on the line people WILL CHEAT in any sport.

There are only TWO solutions, 1. Allow any/all drugs, or 2. If you test positive for any drug on the list of illegal drugs you get a LIFETIME ban form all professional sports.

End of discussion.

nameeman wrote:

My God are Galen Rupp and Mo Farrah the only runners capable of world medals by hard work alone?

I honestly agree with you. RUpp is one of the FEW clean guys out there- even if the TUE stuff is in a gray-area.

The limit for (clean) human performance is probably fairly close to 3:30/12:55/26:40;59:00. I'm quite suspicious of any times that exceed those by to much.