Where does D3 #1 NCC finish in D1 or D2?

rojo wrote:

two line gradebook wrote:

d2- would podium. D1 is overrated. Look how adams beat the ncaa champs colorado a few years ago

d3- depends on the year.. I think one year SUNY Cortland beat a ton of teams that made the big dance and was a point behind villanova who was a top 20 team. That north central team too a few years ago could have been top 15.

This is just totally not true. I coached at 10 years for Cornell. At Cornell, we never made NCAAs. We also never lost to Cortland.

Cortland never came close to beating a full strength villanova squad either.

I'd say the top D3 team woul be about 50th best d1 team.

So maybe in history could the best d3 team ever make d1 nats? Maybe.

Villanova 126, cortland 127

Looked like a full squad to me based on Nova's national team:

Cornell beat cortland a few weeks prior at Paul short but also lost to villanova. I think it is reasonable to say that Cortland could have beaten Cornell on a given day. They could definitely compete with top level DI, which is obvious because they did compete with top level DI.

DIII sucks the donkey when compared to DI. Could they compete? Hell No...most of them are wannabe running dorks. Leave the real running to the DI guys.

No shortage of opportunities... Said like a man who has never seen a xc or track and field budget... If you are representing that d3 schools can afford to be flown across the country to the premier events, similar to their d1 counterparts, you sir, are an ignoramus

Do d3 athletes get thrown into meets occasionally, yes, especially it seems on the east coast, but that is the exception not the rule,... When's the last time you saw a d3 guy at the meyo invitational? Is it because the Midwest doesn't have good d3 schools, or is there something else at play... Just one of many examples

Last time i checked the Meyo invitational was held at Notre Dame, a fine DI institution. They don't invite the D3 because they don't want them clogging up the track when the real racing starts. Have you ever seen some of the D3 runners getting lapped in a D3 meet. They keep going and never concede the way to the real speedsters. Yes, I'm a jerk but I'm honest.

D3 hatin' wrote:

No shortage of opportunities... Said like a man who has never seen a xc or track and field budget... If you are representing that d3 schools can afford to be flown across the country to the premier events, similar to their d1 counterparts, you sir, are an ignoramus

Do d3 athletes get thrown into meets occasionally, yes, especially it seems on the east coast, but that is the exception not the rule,... When's the last time you saw a d3 guy at the meyo invitational? Is it because the Midwest doesn't have good d3 schools, or is there something else at play... Just one of many examples

D3 Budgets are typically around ~20K or so(Obivously some more and some less).

Big time D1 schools Budgets are typically 800K+.

A D3 coach has a tough decision of where to race a good athlete. He could fly out his kid to Stanford to run fast. OR the athlete could just run a qualifying time for Nationals, at the meet down the road and save the money to buy subway for the trip back home.

The coach doesn't gain much by having his kid run faster at a big meet. Except less money to spend than he already has.

curiousobserver wrote:

The D3 xc champ used to race D1 nationals two days later. Not sure exactly how much this happened, but it wasn't unheard of for the d3 champ to become a D1 all-american despite not being fully rested going in to the race.

Yes, I did that (probably before many of you were born - but after Dan Henderson!). On Saturday ran the (8k) race of my life (to that point) to win D3 on a tough/slow course, then flew back home, Sunday flew out to D1 exhausted, and Monday ran probably the worst race (and 1st 10k) of my season. Just could never get going. Finished about 15 sec outside "All American" cutoff (quotes cuz it wouldn't count). A few guys who won other years have done well (top 20), typically those who were winning D3 by a bigger margin. Either they were that much better, or they had a slightly easier day on Saturday. It's a rough gig.

Team wise, the best D3 programs with most depth would beat some D1 teams at Nationals - but partly because some of those teams have crash-and-burn races. So, top 25 some years, but I don't think any D3 team would ever have threatened top 10.

Puffing My Chest wrote:

Last time i checked the Meyo invitational was held at Notre Dame, a fine DI institution. They don't invite the D3 because they don't want them clogging up the track when the real racing starts. Have you ever seen some of the D3 runners getting lapped in a D3 meet. They keep going and never concede the way to the real speedsters. Yes, I'm a jerk but I'm honest.

Not really worth responding to this, but... I and other D3 runners I know regularly defeated some D1 all americans in some other meets. But hey, we shouldn't have been allowed on the track.

It's true some D3 programs have no talent. In fact our good team also included runners with no talent, but they worked hard and we appreciated that, too. And no, they weren't running in the D1 meets clogging up the track.

Budget wrote:

D3 Budgets are typically around ~20K or so(Obivously some more and some less).

Big time D1 schools Budgets are typically 800K+.

A D3 coach has a tough decision of where to race a good athlete. He could fly out his kid to Stanford to run fast. OR the athlete could just run a qualifying time for Nationals, at the meet down the road and save the money to buy subway for the trip back home.

The coach doesn't gain much by having his kid run faster at a big meet. Except less money to spend than he already has.

The losers who govern North Central wouldn't give the cross country team any money. Pretty sure the budget is created from the fundraiser. I know Crain had to fly himself to Stanford so he could race actual competition instead of running another 14:20 on the track by himself against Wheaton/Auggie/WIAC etc. I don't think that's normal for Division 3 though. North Central is a joke of a college other than it's cross country team so I wouldn't be surprised if other schools budgeted for sports other than football.

North Central could probably trophy in both of them this year in back to back weekends but then they wouldn't be able to party after nats so that won't happen probably

I heard a rumor NCC's men pre-chase Rum Chata

did thata wrote:

[quote]Puffing My Chest wrote:

Not really worth responding to this, but... I and other D3 runners I know regularly defeated some D1 all americans in some other meets. But hey, we shouldn't have been allowed on the track.

I hear ya kid but don't buy that you and other D3 runners you know "regularly" beat D1 All-Americans. That's simply not true. Yes, occasionally one D1 runner can squeeze into the top 40 at NCAA division 1 XC but this is an irregularity, not the norm. Anyway, like I said I'm a jerk and just puffing my chest out.

Puffing My Chest wrote:

Last time i checked the Meyo invitational was held at Notre Dame, a fine DI institution. They don't invite the D3 because they don't want them clogging up the track when the real racing starts. Have you ever seen some of the D3 runners getting lapped in a D3 meet. They keep going and never concede the way to the real speedsters. Yes, I'm a jerk but I'm honest.

Even if they allowed 3-5 best DIII teams to run, there would be half a dozen DIII guys +2:00 behind the pack, possibly getting lapped, after going out too fast. The 5-7th men on the BEST DIII team do not belong in Meyo. There is no shortage of solid DI teams who will be in the race and not potentially embarrass themselves or dilute the meet.

Because, the meet is not run for the benefit of the athletes. It is managed to preserve the brand of the meet. If you let scrubs in, the very best teams will skip the race, and then the meet slides in prestige.

DI running is a job. It is serious. It is professional. DIII is not. If you are running for Wisconsin, for example, you want to run against professionals. That is your benchmark. DIII runners who are as good as you? Who cares. What DIII crybabies interpret is a snub is really a DI program's preference for running against like-minded professionals.

No one is demanding that the 5-7th men be allowed to run. It's pathetic that a collegiate runner who qualifies wouldn't be allowed to run just because he's in DIII, though.

Exactly, that's why distance powerhouses like eastern Illinois, Bradley, and DePaul are there... Because a 5 minute pace 5k just feels more professional when you're not getting best by d3 guys

Eastern Illinois, Bradley, Depaul, and countless other teams that are division I might as well be division III.

You probably would have had a lot more fun too. I was a D1 track AA but not without a lot of struggle and heartache; my son was a multiple D3 AA and had a fantastic experience from beginning to end because he progressed in precisely the manner you outline.

College is more expensive than ever so I can't blame most of the talented runners to take the D1 option. It's understandable why so few D3 runners ever go pro.

Which makes it all the more impressive when any single D3 team can even remotely compete against any D1 team, let alone dream of qualifying for nationals.

NCC may not qualify for D1 nationals, but if they performed at the top of their abilities they would likely beat at least a handful of teams at the national meet.

Fastnbulbous wrote:

College is more expensive than ever so I can't blame most of the talented runners to take the D1 option. It's understandable why so few D3 runners ever go pro.

Which makes it all the more impressive when any single D3 team can even remotely compete against any D1 team, let alone dream of qualifying for nationals.

NCC may not qualify for D1 nationals, but if they performed at the top of their abilities they would likely beat at least a handful of teams at the national meet.

I don't think anybody would disagree with that.

If the assertion is that the top DIII team can regularly qualify for DI nationals, that is probably not the case.

If the assertion is that there are some DIII teams that can give some decent DI teams a run for the money, that is absolutely true.

I am amused by this, "DIII is just as good as DI" meme. That is not true. This is a sport of objective numbers. And the numbers are obvious - DIII is not as deep/competitive as DI. But then again, its not supposed to be. That is the point. DIII runners do it because they want to, and they want to do other things in school.

Perhaps beat 1-2 D1 teams, certainly not "a handful." Maybe William and Mary the year the team had food poisoning.

Fastnbulbous wrote:

College is more expensive than ever so I can't blame most of the talented runners to take the D1 option. It's understandable why so few D3 runners ever go pro.

Which makes it all the more impressive when any single D3 team can even remotely compete against any D1 team, let alone dream of qualifying for nationals.

NCC may not qualify for D1 nationals, but if they performed at the top of their abilities they would likely beat at least a handful of teams at the national meet.

This is a little off topic, but I've wondered how much better D3 teams would be if they redshirted guys like D1 programs. Considering how much D3 focuses on development (seems like they haven't averaged even one frosh xc AA recently on the men's side), it could make quite a difference. Imagine if NCC still had Crain and Klein. Obviously this won't happen as most D3 schools don't have graduate programs, but it's interesting to think about.

Regardless, I hope nobody is seriously thinking NCC would threaten top-10 for D1. My guess is the exceptional D3 teams could podium at D2 and beat a few teams at D1 Nationals, but I am admittedly just speculating. Still that's quite impressive for a school that cannot give scholarship money and recruits almost exclusively from one state.