After this weekend where NCC took down GVSU handily, where do you think they would place in the other NCAA championships?
I know that it's just an invitational and that contending teams are not necessarily peaked for these races, but it still begs the question. Do they qualify for D1? what region would they have to come from? where do they place at D2?
With the tradition of strength based work and high volume mileage you have to assume that they would be well suited for the 10k in the fall.
D2: 12th
D1: Regionals
d2- would podium. D1 is overrated. Look how adams beat the ncaa champs colorado a few years ago
d3- depends on the year.. I think one year SUNY Cortland beat a ton of teams that made the big dance and was a point behind villanova who was a top 20 team. That north central team too a few years ago could have been top 15.
D2: Top 4
D1: Top 25.
If GVS is legitimately a top 4 program in D2, then North Central has to be considered a top 4 threat for D2. Yes they race a 10k at nationals and yes D2 nationals is 2 weeks after D3 nationals- however, North Central not only beat GVU 36-69, they put 5 guys in front of their 2 (and nearly 7 in front of their 5). Everyone in the nation knows North Central is a "strength" program so I don't think the shift to 10k would affect them nearly as much as everyone seems to think, in fact, I think it would probably help them.
D1 is a little bit tougher to say where they would fall. They would be in the Midwest region, meaning they would fall somewhere between 3-6 behind OK State, Oklahoma, and possibly Tulsa. The question is if they get 4th, would they get out?
NCC has never had a team that could make the top 25 in D1. I am an alum from some of the better NCC teams and now work in D1, there is really no comparison. When I was on the team we also thought we were much better than we really were. Now I know better.
two line gradebook wrote:
d2- would podium. D1 is overrated. Look how adams beat the ncaa champs colorado a few years ago
d3- depends on the year.. I think one year SUNY Cortland beat a ton of teams that made the big dance and was a point behind villanova who was a top 20 team. That north central team too a few years ago could have been top 15.
ex cardinal wrote:
NCC has never had a team that could make the top 25 in D1. I am an alum from some of the better NCC teams and now work in D1, there is really no comparison. When I was on the team we also thought we were much better than we really were. Now I know better.
Thank you -- I'm friends with a few of the NCC guys and kept hearing talk of how Crain could possible podium at DI nats (if he were to run) after his 28:5x 10k.
Truth be told, yes, there is a lot of talent coming in and out of NCC and Al is a legend. But unless it was a tactical race, even your top guys would get blown out of the water. Not everyone is going to end up like Rizzo.
Another interesting note: for the amount of All American's they get out of that XC program, very few go on to be successful post-college. Plenty of guys who were top 7 or NCAA qualifiers in track who take a shot at the roads, and can't manage to put together a good half or full, at least to the level which their college times would predict.
Illinoisphotographer wrote:
Thank you -- I'm friends with a few of the NCC guys and kept hearing talk of how Crain could possible podium at DI nats (if he were to run) after his 28:5x 10k.
Truth be told, yes, there is a lot of talent coming in and out of NCC and Al is a legend. But unless it was a tactical race, even your top guys would get blown out of the water. Not everyone is going to end up like Rizzo.
Another interesting note: for the amount of All American's they get out of that XC program, very few go on to be successful post-college. Plenty of guys who were top 7 or NCAA qualifiers in track who take a shot at the roads, and can't manage to put together a good half or full, at least to the level which their college times would predict.
Your last point is true of every program. There's not very much support for guys who might be, say, 63-65 minutes at the half if everything goes right, and it's not super-easy to make the transition from college to solo training. There're enough D1 guys who only go 2:17 despite taking a couple years off from life to show you how hard it can be.
There's also the question of motivation. For example, my D3 program had a run of D1-level talent on the girl's side (sub-4:20 while training 5 days a week, capable of much faster if they could get in more competitive races), and none of them went on to do much after college. A few of them, I think, would be competitive on the national level given a couple years in a good club. Instead, they went to med school, got a PhD, etc. Is that really an indictment of the program? I don't think so.
The D3 xc champ used to race D1 nationals two days later. Not sure exactly how much this happened, but it wasn't unheard of for the d3 champ to become a D1 all-american despite not being fully rested going in to the race.
I think the top d3 team each year would probably beat one or two d1 teams at nationals, but would not be good enough to qualify for nationals out of most regions. On a year when the d3 team champion is really strong (e.g. North Central 2009, Calvin 2007) they would have a shot at top 25.
Well only one way to find out, and that involves the D1 coaches allowing d3 and d2 schools into the 'elite' divisions at their invitationals... Obviously this will never happen, as they have nothing to gain and everything to lose...
As an aside, d3 really needs to start running a 10k for regionals and nats... Unless there is some reason I am overlooking...
And Illinoisphotographer, you're and idiot...
Truth hurts son wrote:
And Illinoisphotographer, you're and idiot...
Wow...
How is he an idiot?
Truth hurts son wrote:
As an aside, d3 really needs to start running a 10k for regionals and nats... Unless there is some reason I am overlooking...
I've always heard numbers. There's a lot of D3 schools who have small XC teams. It's a lot easier to train a 800/1500 guy to run an 8k XC race than for them to run a 10k.
Technically, they were not D1 AA, the NCAA only credited them with D3 AA. My friend, Dan henderson won D3 and was 10th in D1 and only received the latter honor. There were very few D3 runners that made the top 25 in D1.
curiousobserver wrote:
The D3 xc champ used to race D1 nationals two days later. Not sure exactly how much this happened, but it wasn't unheard of for the d3 champ to become a D1 all-american despite not being fully rested going in to the race.
I think the top d3 team each year would probably beat one or two d1 teams at nationals, but would not be good enough to qualify for nationals out of most regions. On a year when the d3 team champion is really strong (e.g. North Central 2009, Calvin 2007) they would have a shot at top 25.
If you guys actually knew Illinoisphotographer, you would know he was a scrub from a scrub program. I really dont trust some of the posts he has after seeing what he's posted before.
On a side note, Illinoisphotographer you need to get off your "high horse" when it comes to the marathon. 2:30's is not that good...
Seamus McElliot was a D1 All american in the 90's after winning the D3 title, 35th. (1990?)
As far as recent history goes, Macharia Yuot (2006), Ben Sathre (2011), and Tim Nelson (2012) would have been D1 All Americans given the opportunity. These guys dominated all fall and at least in Sathre's and Nelson's cases they took plenty of D1 scalps during the regular season. Yuot also ran a 2:20ish marathon the day after D3 nationals.
Tyler Sigl (2007) and Peter Kosgei (2008) would have had a chance at it but it would have taken a perfect race. Kosgei was best suited for mile/3K/steeple and unfortunately never achieved what he was capable of in the flat events.
Ricky Flynn (2009), Anders Hulleberg (2010), and Mike Leduc (2013) would have been also-rans. I think most would acknowledge that although these guys were the best on the day of D3 nationals they were not the best runner in D3 that particular year (Kosgei, Spain, Crain).
Flynn went on to break 14 that year and later ran a 2:13. He really was pretty good, embezzlement aside.
Also, didn't D3 guys used to race D1 nats only a couple days after D3? The fact that anyone would do well running extra distance with 2 days to rest from their goal race is surprising-- guess they skipped the post-nats partying.
Shuggie wrote:
If you guys actually knew Illinoisphotographer, you would know he was a scrub from a scrub program. I really dont trust some of the posts he has after seeing what he's posted before.
On a side note, Illinoisphotographer you need to get off your "high horse" when it comes to the marathon. 2:30's is not that good...
Don't really see how what college I went to matters. I'll give you that I never really liked the workouts in college as they catered to those who had a lot of natural talent and leg-speed and that I often supplemented with higher mileage and longer tempo runs.
I'm not on a "high horse" and never claimed my 2:33 is great or anything. It's not a bad time for someone who only ran 25:52 in an XC 8k, that's all.
What I was referring to was there's a decent number of guys who were 24:xx XC or 14:xx track guys who never seem to get down to their potential in the longer races. And that is pretty universal regardless of the college. I am just more familiar with the NCC program and guys due to living and having grown up a couple of miles from there, and it does surprise me, knowing the amount of work and miles they put in year in-and-out there that they wouldn't have a few more guys racing 68-69 and 2:2x full's.
curiousobserver wrote:
The D3 xc champ used to race D1 nationals two days later. Not sure exactly how much this happened, but it wasn't unheard of for the d3 champ to become a D1 all-american despite not being fully rested going in to the race.
I think the top d3 team each year would probably beat one or two d1 teams at nationals, but would not be good enough to qualify for nationals out of most regions. On a year when the d3 team champion is really strong (e.g. North Central 2009, Calvin 2007) they would have a shot at top 25.
Didn't they used to post rankings of all divisions combined? I thought I heard of one of the mid-2000s Calvin team being "ranked" in the top 10 overall.
Ho Hum wrote:
Flynn went on to break 14 that year and later ran a 2:13. He really was pretty good, embezzlement aside.
It was two years later that he broke 14. I don't think he was higher than 4th in any of the track national races in 2010 and his 5K was around 14:25.