I'll jump in for a little here before Pole shuts it down. The Supreme Court has even ruled that the police have no responsibility to protect an individual. Guess whose responsibility it is then to protect themselves. Now that that is clear, it is simply up to you whether or not you choose to accept that responsibility, and if so whether or not owning, maintaining, practicing, etc. a firearm is for you...which you have the right to.
Here in Canada, the only people with handguns are criminals. The US is 2 hours away at most, and thus lots of handguns, if they want them. The penalties for carrying one are severe, and there is mandatory jail time if you point any gun at another person.
the result? Almost no gun crime. Toronto has 50 murders and 250 shootings a year, vs 10x that for Chicago.
Toronto is a great example of a place where the only people who are armed are criminals, and everything is extremely safe vs most cities in the US.
Nobody feels the need to own a gun. Arming people here would make us less safe, not more safe.
Since this is a running discussion board, let me ask you this.
How many carry a gun while running (open or concealed)? If you don't, how do you protect yourself without a gun?
And how many carry a gun during road races? If you race without a gun, aren't you announcing to would-be criminals that you are an unarmed victim?
Just a thought... wrote:
Since this is a running discussion board, let me ask you this.
How many carry a gun while running (open or concealed)? If you don't, how do you protect yourself without a gun?
And how many carry a gun during road races? If you race without a gun, aren't you announcing to would-be criminals that you are an unarmed victim?
I don't carry while I run. It's a cost/benefit analysis that I've made for myself, though I do own some small handguns that wouldn't be too bad to carry is a snug holster.
I'm also a black belt in kempo karate and I'm more than capable of defending myself against anyone who isn't carrying a gun. In a hand to hand altercation I fear very few people. If I'm attacked with a knife while I'm running I'll bleed but I'll survive. (If you get into a knife fight you are going to get cut. Accepting that before the altercation starts is important.)
As someone else mentioned, a small pepper spray dispenser would be a good idea for people to carry, especially women who run alone. They are small, light and cheap.
Toronto Dude wrote:
Toronto is a great example of a place where the only people who are armed are criminals, and everything is extremely safe vs most cities in the US.
US =/= Canada. The US is not like Canada. There would be chaos if law abiding citizens gave up their handguns.
924-CGV wrote:
This thread makes me so happy and proud to live in a country where guns are illegal.
You guys honestly scare the p!ss out of me.
The odds of you getting hurt/killed by someone carrying with a permit are astronomically small. Things like airplane engines coming through your roof and killing you, presumably this also scares the piss out of you?
I'm not necessarily a proponent of knuckleheads carrying guns, but the idea that it somehow significantly endangers you is asinine.
I'm glad that where you live is "safe" though. Making things illegal generally keep criminals from using them...
fisky wrote:
Tom Joad wrote:In the way more than 10 years I have been on this planet I have never had the need for or known anyone that has ever had the need for a gun.
You're all a bunch of cowardly nut cases afraid that black or brown men are coming for you
It was late December 2009 at the I-75 Exit 413 rest area in Florida. We had stopped to stretch in the truck area since I was driving an RV. To make a long story short, I got suckered into a professional scam by a group of about ten men. When I realized it was a scam, I yelled to the old couple across the circle that it was a scam and not to give the guy any money. The BIG guy beside me hit me hard enough on the shoulder to knock down a small guy like me. I was 62 at the time, but I'm still pretty agile for an old guy so I didn't fall. I put my hand behind my back on my gun in my hip pocket and said "Get away from me! This is a scam!" The entire circle of men froze and looked at me. I had thought one guy was running the scam, but I suddenly realized EVERYONE was in on it except me and the old senior couple. I started backing away, yelling for help. Two big guys followed me, taunting me that I had nothing. One was in front and one flanking me to the side. Finally, my wife by the RV saw me and called 911. We were out in the open by then. I was backing away from them with my left hand out in the universal stop position and my right hand on my handgun, yelling... Get away from me. Help! Call 911!!. The guys finally turned around. When I got to my truck, I was shaking like a leaf. Another guy had followed and sat down on a nearby bench to watch the RV. I pulled out my bigger handgun from the console and held it sideways in the window so he could see that I really was armed. He got up and walked away. We waited until the police arrived. It took about 30 minutes. They told us that this group was running the same scam at truck stops and other southbound rest areas. Some victims had been beaten pretty badly when they caught on and tried to resist.
WTF R U talking about? You got suckered into a professsional scam by 10 men at a highway rest area? What kind of life do you lead where you encounter large groups of men running professional scams at highway rest areas? What was the scam? How did you realize it was a scam? How is it that all these other victims also caught on at some point and got a beating for their troubles? Does this mean others did not catch on and so did not get beaten? I guess these professional criminals did nto carry guns themselves as they allowed you to put your right hand on your gun and back away? Apparently they had no fear of your calling 911 -- and why should they. You indicate they had been doing this for sometime apparently with no interference from the law.
It's a constitutional right to bear arms. Switerland has one of the lowest crime rates and it's citizens are required to have a gun from what I've been told. Usually prevents people from trying something.
Um, yeah wrote:
neanderthal dream wrote:On the other hand, my thoughts about the Colorado theater shooting are completely different. Getting trapped in a room with a gunman who has opened fire..... I wouldn't hesitate to draw and try for a shot. I don't see that as trying to be a hero, my motivations are all about self-preservation.
So you feel confident that in a dark theater, with dozens of screaming and running people, you could pick out the one gunman (are you sure it is one or are there more?) wearing body armor and realistically take him out?
If there were another theater-goer who like you was also packing and looking to take down the bad guy, are you confident you wouldn't decide he was also a gunman? Or that he wouldn't decide you were also a gunman?
Is there a special sign you'd have so when the first cops show up moments later they won't automatically assume that you, holding a smoking gun, isn't a bad guy still looking for targets and shoot first, ask questions later?
Because a dark theater with a screaming, panicked mob is just like the calm of a shooting range when it comes to processing your environment in a sane manner.
The shooter wasn't wearing body armor. He was wearing a vest to carry magazines, but it wasn't a vest that could stop a bullet. Guns make flashes when they shoot. There is a special sign for telling the cops you're not the shooter. Put your gun down and hands up. Maybe you get arrested, but you'd be able to prove your innocence pretty easily when he used a different gun. And I'm pretty sure this guy is talking about training beyond just going to a shooting range.
I think you're missing the point. Most of the CCW advocates in this discussion are saying if you carry, you should know your limits and act accordingly. If you're not confident you can safely engage a threat in a given situation, don't pull out your weapon. It also seems they're also advocating more training than just the class to get the permit. "Training" doesn't just mean going the the range and putting holes in paper targets. There's a range of courses out there to prepare gun owners for a variety of situations.
garland823 wrote:
The shooter wasn't wearing body armor. He was wearing a vest to carry magazines, but it wasn't a vest that could stop a bullet.
I stand corrected. The media incorrectly reported that his tactical vest was the ballistic vest, but the police released this
http://apps.auroragov.org/newsupdates/news/InformationTimeLines_7_20_1830.htmand he was evidently wearing a boat load of ballistic equipment.
you're conveniently ignoring the fact that Canada - being the great WHITE north - isn't afflicted with the thug population that Amerika has. There are more thugs in S. Chicago than in the entire nation of Canada...'ay.
There's also very little gun violence in Pyongyang & Jakarta. Doesn't mean we should emulate those cities any more than we should toronto.
What a pussified way to live - 'the only people who are armed are criminals'. I couldn't imagine the sheer helplessness of being totally dependent on a cop to defend me & my family..
Dick Doobey wrote:
Tell me this: If you were a criminal and looking for targets, would you choose the person you assumed was armed? Probably not, right? Well if you assumed everyone was armed then you wouldn't have many targets and crime would drop significantly.
That does not necessarily follow. It appears to rely on the mental construct that there are ordinary people (99% of the population, just to pick a number) and there are criminals (the remaining 1%) and that all crimes of violence are perpetrated by these 1%.
Now, not getting into the semantic game of "well, all crimes ARE committed by criminals, by definition", a key question is 'what percentage of gun injuries and fatalities are caused by (a) hardened criminals who go around looking for victims, (b) regular folks who 'lose it' in a moment of anger/passion, etc., (c) accidents?'
I do not know the answer to this question. If the answer is that the vast majority of gun deaths/major injuries are intentionally caused by a small number of hardened criminals then your argument might make some sense. If, on the other hand, the numbers were the other way around then it would seem that the proliferation of guns would likely lead to an increase in gun violence.
Bad Wigins wrote:
I doubt you understand the complexity and ambiguity of deadly-force and self-defense laws in your state, but you should be aware that it is an affirmative defense. The burden of proof is on you.
You're more likely to shoot some purse snatcher in the back and go to prison than stop a mad gunman at the shopping mall. You're also more likely to aggravate a situation where a gun is being used coercively with no intent to fire, such as a robbery. When a vigilante draws down on a robber, he turns the loss of a few hundred dollars into a gun battle risking the lives of everyone present.
When there's a vigilante present, I wanna know about it so I can get out of the way before the shooting starts. That's why your gun should be visible. If there's nothing wrong with carrying, why don't you carry openly?
It helped me!
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POMPATUS OF LOVE wrote:
What a pussified way to live - 'the only people who are armed are criminals'. I couldn't imagine the sheer helplessness of being totally dependent on a cop to defend me & my family..
It is actually quite nice. We don't live in perpetual fear of foes - real or imagined.
Toronto Dude wrote:
POMPATUS OF LOVE wrote:What a pussified way to live - 'the only people who are armed are criminals'. I couldn't imagine the sheer helplessness of being totally dependent on a cop to defend me & my family..
It is actually quite nice. We don't live in perpetual fear of foes - real or imagined.
Agreed. It may surprise a non-American to know that the majority of Americans do not own a gun, have never fired a gun, do not live in constant fear, and never really think about guns except when they see some tragedy in the news.
Well I dunno wrote:
...a key question is 'what percentage of gun injuries and fatalities are caused by (a) hardened criminals who go around looking for victims, (b) regular folks who 'lose it' in a moment of anger/passion, etc., (c) accidents?'
I do not know the answer to this question. If the answer is that the vast majority of gun deaths/major injuries are intentionally caused by a small number of hardened criminals then your argument might make some sense. If, on the other hand, the numbers were the other way around then it would seem that the proliferation of guns would likely lead to an increase in gun violence.
I agree that this is a relevant question, but can't agree that the solution in either case would be amending or repealing the 2nd amendment (or Article 1, section 16 of my state's constitution).
I can't blame McDonald's for making me fat. I can't blame my car for making me speed. I can't blame Budweiser for making me drunk. I have to take personal responsibilities for my actions and if I commit a crime with a gun it isn't the gun's fault or the gun maker's fault.
I had a gunman open fire at my place of work a couple years ago, killing one and almost killing another. Luckily, I worked at a place that had A LOT of armed police officers. It took 7 officers, and about 85 shots, to take down this gunman. From my perspective, I was hiding in a bathroom with 6 other people, with all of us defenseless.
Immediately after, I wanted a gun. However, after reflecting and talking to a couple of different people with a variety of ideas, I've decided against it. I agree that it absolutely make a situation worse. When I was hiding in the bathroom, we had NOOOO idea how many gunmen there were. We had heard 1, 3 and 4. In that moment of chaos, there are a lot of unknowns. The fact that it took 7 armed police officers 85 shots to take down the gunman, I knew that if it was just me vs. him, I probably would not have taken him down, and would have run out of ammo, and found myself running.
Additionally, what if one of the 6 people I were hiding with had a gun? I know (not knowing how many gunmen there actually were), I would have been incredibly uneasy, and when people get uneasy in chaotic situations, bad things can happen.
Just some perspective. Not saying I'm right, just saying that I've been in this type of situation, and wanted to offer another view.
American Dude wrote:
It may surprise a non-American to know that the majority of Americans do not own a gun, have never fired a gun, do not live in constant fear, and never really think about guns except when they see some tragedy in the news.
In fact, only 32% of American households own a gun, which is a 18 point decline from 1973, and a 20% decline since 1980.
http://www.cnn.com/2012/07/31/politics/gun-ownership-declining/index.htmlGun ownership is actually going down in the US fairly precipitously, but those people who own guns tend to own several and are often very noisy about their pro-gun views.
StoryTime wrote:
I had a gunman open fire at my place of work a couple years ago, killing one and almost killing another. Luckily, I worked at a place that had A LOT of armed police officers. It took 7 officers, and about 85 shots, to take down this gunman. From my perspective, I was hiding in a bathroom with 6 other people, with all of us defenseless.
Immediately after, I wanted a gun. However, after reflecting and talking to a couple of different people with a variety of ideas, I've decided against it. I agree that it absolutely make a situation worse. When I was hiding in the bathroom, we had NOOOO idea how many gunmen there were. We had heard 1, 3 and 4. In that moment of chaos, there are a lot of unknowns. The fact that it took 7 armed police officers 85 shots to take down the gunman, I knew that if it was just me vs. him, I probably would not have taken him down, and would have run out of ammo, and found myself running.
Additionally, what if one of the 6 people I were hiding with had a gun? I know (not knowing how many gunmen there actually were), I would have been incredibly uneasy, and when people get uneasy in chaotic situations, bad things can happen.
Just some perspective. Not saying I'm right, just saying that I've been in this type of situation, and wanted to offer another view.
WTF, where was this? That is crazy. Did you barricade the bathroom door?
It was at a Federal Courthouse. Should narrow it down, and also give away my identity to some out there.