LOL!
LOL!
Was DaCosta on drugs at the time of his major break out race?
carhartt wrote:
Was DaCosta on drugs at the time of his major break out race?
Why would he be? Many others have surpassed his 2:06:05. I think he simply had the race of his life.
Well,
the olympics are over. Let's continue this discussion about how to improve the Lactate Threshold? JK doesn't understand how MAX LASS Pace is used to improve the Lactate Threshold
Do you understand MLSS? Read Dr. Foster. I am sure JK understands MLSS.
JK doesn't understand wrote:
Well,
the olympics are over. Let's continue this discussion about how to improve the Lactate Threshold? JK doesn't understand how MAX LASS Pace is used to improve the Lactate Threshold
I have to imagine you simply are not familiar with JK's extensive knowledge of physiology. I read something recently he wrote about isocapnic buffering; he knows his stuff.
Secondly, the discussion was about Renato's use of OFFSEASON aerobic work to improve the lactate threshold. If you are trying to augment your MAX Lactate Steady State in December and your main races are in June, I can all but guarantee you will have SEVERE problems come race time. You will have already maximized your limited anaerobic abilities. The best athletes are great because they stay aerobic, even when racing, longer than others, a la Bekele's 53 second final lap off 27:05.11 Olympic record 10,000 race.
So I would imagine if Renato read the stuff the other guy posted from JK (and I do not know if he did) he would concur.
Also, congratulations Renato on your athletes' performances (Bungei 5th, Baldini gold).
Read Olbrecht, all true about what you say about staying aerobic. Let's hear about Renato's program.....all ears here.
bump
Why do people seperate training so much into anerobic and aerobic ? Scientist always forget about exercise movement. Why do you think Renato includes alot of different training intensities all the time.You can run hard hills but because of bigger recruitment of fibers you gain strength and dont lose aerobic enzymes.Do you honestly think That Bekele ran 12:49 indoors and two- world cross titles in the winter by staying all Aerobic.Tell me what Aerobic is ? Because i bet just sitting at this computer your lactate is registering.Runners always remember their organic system but seem to be at a loss when they realize their muscles tell their heart what it can do ?
incoming wrote:
Why do people seperate training so much into anerobic and aerobic ? Scientist always forget about exercise movement. Why do you think Renato includes alot of different training intensities all the time.You can run hard hills but because of bigger recruitment of fibers you gain strength and dont lose aerobic enzymes.Do you honestly think That Bekele ran 12:49 indoors and two- world cross titles in the winter by staying all Aerobic.Tell me what Aerobic is ? Because i bet just sitting at this computer your lactate is registering.Runners always remember their organic system but seem to be at a loss when they realize their muscles tell their heart what it can do ?
You must train all components to various degrees but shift emphasis at different points in the year (periodization).
A 12:49 IS predominantly an aerobic effort for Bekele, the 5,000 being a race of strength and not mile-type speed. And he is an exception to the rule; how many great Kenyans (Komen, to some degree Kipketer, and others) pop 1-2 seasons worth of great races at age "18" and disappear forever from the elite ranks?
That's because if you do intense anaerobic work 6 months before your main race you will fry your central nervous system with an excessively low blood pH (and your central nervous system must be trained with efficient movements (re: economy) to improve aerobically or you will reinforce the wrong form) and ruin your season.
Do you have any idea what his lactate is during a hard 5k or cross-country? The problem with most training is the over-emphasis on Glycolitic work that is not supported with rest and many different aerobic support intensities.You fry your nervous system or endocrine when you keep on it repeatedely with glycolytic work.Race movement needs to be in training from the very start.You will never run your fastest if you become over concerned on periodization and too much of one thing.
Very well said.
Keep your comments coming.
But don't you think alot of people ruin their season by getting hurt in the base season by just running and never strengthing their muscles specific to running fast.you make Aerobic and anerobic to be political parties that can't be incorporated far away.The most neglected sysem is the nervous system.
But don't you think alot of people ruin their season by getting hurt in the base season by just running and never strengthing their muscles specific to running fast.you make Aerobic and anerobic to be political parties that can't be incorporated far away.The most neglected sysem is the nervous system.
Yes, this was said in the last point. You cannot ignore anything but must shift emphasis. If you are doing intense anerobic repeats in the base phase of training, you are setting yourself up for failure. If you are doing slow easy runs during the middle of the track season and ignoring speed and lactate buffering, you are also setting yourself up for failure.
JK has said all of this countless times, but he does not post anymore so I recall what he said for you. For instance, one of Wejo's staple offseason workouts is 2-3 sets of 5-6x150-200m strides or buildups along with sets of drills. JK also has spoken about the short uphill sprints Renato advocates to "imprint" good form on the central nervous system. This is not new.
incoming wrote:
Do you have any idea what his lactate is during a hard 5k or cross-country? The problem with most training is the over-emphasis on Glycolitic work that is not supported with rest and many different aerobic support intensities.You fry your nervous system or endocrine when you keep on it repeatedely with glycolytic work.Race movement needs to be in training from the very start.You will never run your fastest if you become over concerned on periodization and too much of one thing.
Obviously his lactic acid level is elevated during a 5,000 or X-C RACE. A race is an all-out effort. Offseason training is not. And by the way, glycolytic work IS anaerobic work. So an overemphasis on training the glycolytic fibers is an overemphasis on training the anaerobic system.
And you must be concerned with periodization if you want to be your best because ALL the best athletes periodize (shity emphasis).
It is your training and you can run how you want but at least understand there are tried and true methods available.
Perhaps the continual bumping of this thread will bring it to Renato's attention, unless he is on his way to Brussels.
If you are doing intense anerobic repeats in the base phase of training, you are setting yourself up for failure
Could you please provide some examples of what YOU consider Intense Anaerobic Repeats during the "Base Phase"? Thanks.
What Renato is trying to tell you is that it's specific to each event.Lactate Threshold for 800 meter runners is going to be different than for marathoners because they will have to race a such high-lactate.The proper support for 5k runners is going to be higher than the scientific (4mm0l) anerobic L.T. That is better for Marathon support.You must support specific events.People with fast-twitch fibers will naturally need to run with higher lactates to train the endurance on those fibers.That doesen't mean their doing lots of Glycolytic work early as in hard 600's on track but they can be doing 5k-10k work quite early and anerobic work with resistance is great because of higher fiber recruitment will not hinder the oxidative processes. Also they can be doing a substantially amount of alatic work for movement. The bottom line is that people on this site are being mislead on proper Lactate training.It's very individual to each specific event and the fibers of each Athlete.Don't beleive that you will turn into a pumpkin if you go above Threshold. The other thing is all this work must be complimented by lots of aerobic support not just(good mileage) jogging.Many different aerobic intensities.
Is this correct ?
Really, who cares. Just run and enjoy it. Follow a program if you wish, but enjoy it.
so why does JK continue to say that during the Off-season 5k-10K runners need to run below the 4MMOL and only exceeding this level during the last 2-3 mins of the session? Is this not appropriate for a 10K runner? Should wejo be doing sessions exceeding the 4 MMOL during the off-season to properly support the aerobic system because he is a 10K man? How many times a month? and what about during the racing season?
Texas wrote:
so why does JK continue to say that during the Off-season 5k-10K runners need to run below the 4MMOL and only exceeding this level during the last 2-3 mins of the session? Is this not appropriate for a 10K runner? Should wejo be doing sessions exceeding the 4 MMOL during the off-season to properly support the aerobic system because he is a 10K man? How many times a month? and what about during the racing season?
In reference to Mr. "incoming," I am unsure from what statement in my post you infer that JK or anyone else psotulates that exceeding the threshold in the base phase will "turn you into a pumpkin" or the physiological equivalent thereof.
As for the 4.0 mmol level, this is a higher lactic acid level than is present at the threshold for world class runners.
World class runners have 2.8-3.0 mmol at the threshold (Marius Bakken can tell you about this).
The base phase is really the time to lay down an excellent aerobic foundation consisting of easy running and a fair amount of work between 95-105% of lactate threshold velocity.
You may notice that if you enter a track season with a good base, you can see good results. But generally (or, really, always) you enter the 6-8 week season with whatever you have. You can sharpen and cut time off even in huge chunks, but if you have not improved your threshold and aerobic endurance, you cannot improve.
The threshold work, if you make sure to stay under the threshold (and this is certainly a point I wish JK or Renato would address, specifically, absent a lactate monitor, how can one monitor the effort to perceptually stay sub-LT?) you can do 2 focused sessions a week of tempo running, on the edge-type work. JK recommends progression runs for experienced runners which squeeze the pace down from the slow side and probably hover closer to the slower aerobic threshold (which I believe occurs at a level of 2.0 mmol lactic acid) before increasing the pace further at the end.
Even in the racing season if you can manage it is good to do threshold work.
Two cases in point; Hicham El Guerrouj's coach Abdelkader Kada has made available his training (you can get it from Michael Bautista's kingofthemile.com). Even during the immediate pre-racing period, El Guerrouj has "aerobic endurance" sessions 5-6 times per week at 2:50-3:10 per kilometer, or 4:33-5:06 per mile. This is somewhere in that LT range.
Silva's training program was given by Antonio Cabral ("X-Runner") on mariusbakken.com and his program alson includes this work extensively.
Take from it what you will but take something.