RENATO CANOVA INTERVIEW- ". I can put my hands on fire" to prove these althletes are clean

Renato Canova wrote:

I don't say all these athletes are doped : I say they have the culture of looking for some aid, BECAUSE THEY THINK THEIR TALENT PLUS TRAINING IS NOT ENOUGH, and this is exactly the mentality we have in US (you are an example).

I can read between the lines. You think Salazar's athletes (at least some of them) "think their talent plus training is not enough," and therefore they are dopers. Thanks for that post.

Renato is sharing the training of his athletes with is. Feeding, i.e. sharing this information with us.

No, of course not. I have already posted about things for which I disagree, such as the lack of validity of the Boston course.

Okay so you ask me questions then you answer for yourself, and you think you're not the moron? When you ask a question then at least LISTEN for the answer, which is your major problem.

To be a genius you need to listen and learn.

But I don't care what you think. You are being judgemental. Let people live how they wish, and you live how you wish, unless you wish to be a slave all your life.

J.R. wrote:

Let people live how they wish, and you live how you wish, unless you wish to be a slave all your life.

You're the one who says drugs are no factor in sports and so we should ignore them. Presumably, from your above post, you think laws are a nuisance with which we can do without. OK, so you want anarchy. At least I know where you're coming from. Clarification aids understanding, and you have illustrated that rules are a burden, unless they apply to governing this message board, where you want the strictest dictatorship. What a fool you are.

America, let's wake up and realize the extensiveness of our drug problem. Runners run to put food on their table, when the going gets tough (Martin Fagan) decisions to take drugs are all too common. This is a job and a passion, not just a passion for collegiate/high school/ or rec runners. A survey was taken in the 2004 olympics that asked ALL pro athletes if they would be willing to take drugs if they were told they had no chance of getting caught, 99% answered yes. Drug testing agencies have many cases where they show up specifically in Moroccan camps where all athletes seem to "vanish" when they get a heads up. Europe is full of drug cheats even at the high school and middle school level it is disgusting. The 8th grade record for the Romanian 3k is 8:17. Drugs are adamantly used in training camps. This is all too common, Africans can be given these pills and won't question what they're taking as long as someone tells them it's a supplement, they have no knowledge of drugs and are running for their lives. Look at the effects of HGH on human palate/forehead/jawline growth. Lagat, Michael Johnson, El G, and Carl Lewis all "decided" to get braces pretty late in their careers. Let's get real here and make a connection.

Rumour has it that no medalist at an international championship has had an Hb-lvl below 190. Cross-country skiers are not even allowed to start if there Hb-lvl is above 170. How is this possible?

Junk Master wrote:

Actually, I'm not a drug believer. Like Renato, I'm a gene believer.

It's pretty clear no one can compete with the Kenyans and or East Africans in the Marathon, even with drugs.

The days when a doped Italian can win Olympic Gold are long gone as well.

What I don't buy is Kenyans win because they just train harder, and are mentally tougher, more disciplined etc.

That's insulting to so many of Americans who train so hard, for so many years, for so little.

The Americans lack the numbers in distance running (like they do have in sprinting, Europe lacks both). Becoming a worldclass distancerunner (marathon or 10k that is) needs years of training. Ryan Hall, Ritz and Rupp prove that hard training leads to connection to the worldleading performances.

There are a lot of Kenyans who don't run 2.04. They get hardly any chance to leave Kenya (sometimes they do) and run like 2.17. But in the USA, that's a hard-working, talented, trials-qualifier who put that much aside to reach his goal. If the USA had like 100 2.15 runners, that trials qualifier wouldn't get any attention outside his local community.

It's no insult, call it 'the power of numbers'.

Once again, to put in the same pot cycling and running is an exercise of deep specific ignorance.

I don't know how can be the cost of this "magician" drug, but I know that, for having a Team of cycling of top level, you need not less than 20/25 million dollars per year. The top cyclists have contracts over 2 millions dollars, and many of them over 1 million. Cyclists helping the best sprinters, or the best "grimpeurs", have salaries around 500,000 dollars per year, and you must add the prizes the team can win, normally divided between all the components.

On the other side, go to read what Lashinda Demus, World Champion of 400hs, said : "We are athletes winning 15,000 dollars in one year, and somebody calls our sport "professional". Our sport is going to die".

It's obvious you don't know anything about the organisation of the athletics, especially in Africa. The most part of athletes live in small houses they rent for training only, and in Iten a normal monthly rental for one room is about 1500 Kenyan Shillings (17 dollars per month). For giving an idea, if you have to fill the tank of your car with 50 liters of oil, you pay about 6,000 Ksh, so it means one full is like 4 months for an apartment. In this situation, only the athletes winning some money can have a car, and they help the other for their training.

In Iten, I have an average of 130 miles everyday with the car for training. When we go for long and fast run, we move to Nangili, that is 50 miles far from Iten, so we spend 2 hours for going (you don't know the road...), 2 hours when we come back, and in the middle we have 40 km in, may be, 2:07, with a pick-up full with 30 athletes in the body.

We have very slow connections with Internet, and nobody about the athletes, apart Wilson Kipsang and Edna Kiplagat, use the net.

In this situation, you continue to think Africa can be like Europe or America.... and this makes of you another idiot. Before speaking, try to know something about Geography, History and Culture of other people, otherwise you show the worst side of many American : to believe everything in the World is as in US.

Already many years ago somebody discovered the Earth was not the center of the Universe, but many have still to discover than US is not the center of the Globe, also if can be the most important political part of the world.

HRE wrote:

Jeff Wigand wrote:

Do you think Lydiard could have vouched for Snell?

Absolutely. And Barry Magee would as well and I cannot ever imagine Barry being complicitous with any form of cheating. But again, that's all just personal opinion.

And I agree with you. It comes down to the relationship you have with the person in question. Renato spends most of his time in Kenya with his Kenyans and feels like he knows them well enough to have no doubt that they're not doing anything behind his back. Just like anything, he could be wrong, but I don't think he is. And to the point made about the Ethiopians following his program, he may not have nearly the same relationship with that group, but I would guess he knows Gemedu well enough to be confident that he isn't doing anything behind his back (and I, too, would be shocked if Gemedu were doing something like that). It's like having someone you work with at the company: could he be stealing from the company? It's not impossible, but there's no evidence of it and you have faith in the person. It's no different than any other relationship.

America See the Facts wrote:

A survey was taken in the 2004 olympics that asked ALL pro athletes if they would be willing to take drugs if they were told they had no chance of getting caught, 99% answered yes.

That is false.

Cliff Clavin wrote:

Renato Canova wrote:

I don't say all these athletes are doped : I say they have the culture of looking for some aid, BECAUSE THEY THINK THEIR TALENT PLUS TRAINING IS NOT ENOUGH, and this is exactly the mentality we have in US (you are an example).

I can read between the lines. You think Salazar's athletes (at least some of them) "think their talent plus training is not enough," and therefore they are dopers. Thanks for that post.

That's not what he's saying. He is saying that when a Kenyan isn't running well, they don't think that they need to get their mineral levels tested and that they've never thought about using an underwater treadmill.

Runthedistance wrote:

Kenya being a 3rd world country and dominating middle and long distance running is hard for a lot of people to believe. If Kenyans are cheating then they must be the most secretive society in the world ahead of North Korea, China etc. Kenya is an open society, people are welcoming, why hasn't anybody discover this systematic cheating across society and why is it centered around one place and not the whole country? Why are those New Zealand kids in Iten not using the drug? Why are Kenyans so lucky and not get got cheating? Why can the same drug be use in Italy? why why why?

Besides undeniable cheating (evident from the rapid improvement of times in mid-90's) you must take into consideration that today's athletics is a dying sport. Track has been dying in the industrialized world since mid-80's, field events since late 90's. Kenya dominates distance running not only because of superior genetics (in distances 3000 m and longer) and doping, but also because there is no serious competition. Basically, distance running is now a regional competition of few African countries. A runner from Europe or USA is not likely to invest his effort into a sport that offers such pitiful financial rewards.

NativeSon wrote:

Let me pose a question.

How many elite Kenyan and Ethiopian runners have used drugs?

Can anyone name them?

Find yearslists from late 90's and you can recite their names with ease. LOL

An honorable coach absolutely SHOULD believe in the character of his athletes so I believe Renato when he vouches for the cleanliness of his athletes as I would if we'd asked Lydiard about any of his people. But there are some real differences in the respective situations.

Lydiard's guys were together all the time. If one of them was off at a "specialist" regularly everyone would have known. Arthur was not going back and forth from New Zealand to Italy and having long stretches of time when he didn't know what they were up to. And there wasn't the financial incentive then for taking illegal substances as there is now. None of his guys were going to do anything in running that would leave them set for life. This is similar to the reason I have no trouble believing the legitimacy of Roger Maris's single season home run record and a lot of trouble believing the legitimacy of Mark McGuire's or Barry Bonds' records. The latter records added millions of dollars to their owner's portfolio's. Maris had to work as a beer distributor once he retired. I cannot get past the idea that if other sports where there is a lot of money to be made are plagued with PED use running will be any different.

Finally, the last athlete Lydiard coached was Liza Hunter-Galvin. If you knew Lydiard you'd know that if he was coaching you he believed in your character, evidently just as is teh case with Renato. He, Lydiard, have vouched for her cleanliness as readily as he'd have vouched for Snell's and we know he'd have been wrong.

Running is the only sport that is clean. Yea, sure.

How in the world would "putting your hands on fire" prove that your athletes are clean??? I don't see the connection between burning up your hands and coaching athletes who use or don't use drugs. I DO see how a runner might take PEDs and not tell his/her coach. But it's nice to believe that your runners are clean. And hopefully they are.

So if RC finds out that one of his athletes is doping, will he set his hands on fire???

Junk Master wrote:

Just google that 5.3 percent number. It was widely reported.

Did you read the original article? It was an extract of 2003 CDC data. The article is here:

Key point: Girls who participated in sport were much less likely to be steroid users.

Bonus point:Study based on self reporting, and usage paradoxically decreased with age, with the youngest girls the most likely to self report steroid use. Perhaps as the girls get older they mature, and are less likely to report at a rate of 1 in 20 that they are on the roids as a bit of a joke between them and the survey collector.

"I don't say everybody is clean, but some kind of mentality is part of the person, and we can see it from the beginning. For example, one of the first question from athletes coming from Maroc, Arab Countries, Ukrain is WHICH KIND OF SUPPORT THEY HAVE TO TAKE. They don't ask "if" there is some support, they ask directly "which" support have to take. This means their mentality is that is not possible running fast, and probably to live, without something artificial helping the body.

I don't say all these athletes are doped : I say they have the culture of looking for some aid, BECAUSE THEY THINK THEIR TALENT PLUS TRAINING IS NOT ENOUGH, and this is exactly the mentality we have in US (you are an example)."

If athletes from the U.S, Morocco, the Arab Countries, and the Ukraine are asking directly "which" PEDS/Grey Supps to use, it's not a wild, illogical jump to think PED use is the norm, rather than the exception in those countries.

I mean, if a girl comes with her own condom, I'm guessing she's not a virgin.

So, if at the very least, the use of "support" is MORE common in the above countries, why can't they compete with the Kenyans, who are totally clean-- if the Kenyans don't have the most talent in the world?

Seems to me you ascribe their success to the hardships of their culture, but if their success were the result of culture, rather than genes, you wouldn't see transplanted, or foreign born Kenyans having the success they have, would you?

Bernard Lagat...et all.

Yes, that's the problem I have with this kind of survey of young people. I remember filling out drug surveys in middle school, and everyone would laugh about all the drugs they lied about being on. So what's more likely? That 5% of girls think it's hilarious to say they use steroids, or that they're actually using?

What is wrong with celebrating the unique physiology of these athletes?

No one would blink an eye at the statement, "7 footers are better NBA centers."

No one would blink an eye at the statement, "The kid has a great mindset, but you can't coach height."

Interestingly, if the Kenyans really ARE clean and the rest of the world is doped to the gills, and the Kenyans are still so dominant, transplanted and foreign born included, which is more likely factor in their dominance-- genes, or culture? Not that they are mutually exclusive, most if not all psychologists would agree there's a large genetic component to personality.