How does Fayeteville-Manlius do it?

ENOUGH FLUFF! wrote:

coachescoach wrote:

From what I have heard, from someone close to the program. It is alot of hard running at high levels.

That's exactly the kind of "fluff" I mean. Hard running at high levels? Whaddya talking about? That could mean anything from 12x400m at mile pace several times a week to hard 10-milers. And everything in between! As I said earlier today, I want a two-week schedule for the top 7 runners, in July, September, and October.

You really think a program as secretive as theirs is going to have that info flying around?

Here are a few things I've gathered: Lots of hill running (way underrated for HS athletes), high intensity weight room sessions (high intensity as in HIT, not blaring pump up music and muscleheads), two extra years in the system, coaches that are willing to put in time like a college program (so important it isn't even funny), a great atmosphere (both for team spirit and a learning environment), and finally a coach who knows how much is too much and how much is too little in training. I've heard Bill Aris say he's had guys do as much as 80 mpw (or so, can't remember the exact number) and a girl who was a contributor that did as little as 3 runs a week because of injury problems. It's not that hard guys. They probably do a ton of tempo runs on those hills they have out there and that makes them strong as hell.

Good programs don't come from training plans and science. They come from creating a culture of excellence among the athletes. Especially on the boys side, it is important to have a strong team year after year so the incoming freshman already have goals and expectations. If you are a top 5 freshman going to CBA, FM, York, Woodlands, Neuqua Valley, your goal right away is to win state your senior year and take a trip to nationals. Even as a freshman, you expect to achieve excellence in the future. This allows a lot of kids to buy into the program and work their asses off for 4 years, producing many good teams year after year.

Phenom Man wrote:

Good programs don't come from training plans and science.

Having taken a course that Scott Christensen taught, I can tell you this is false. My guys improved a minute with better training programs.

And what did you learn from Scott Christensen that you applied to your training programs?

The physiology behind training. Not just the biology, but how to apply it to your training. It's basically a lot of stuff Vigil does. Tell Vigil training isn't scientific.

Schott Christensen is a great coach. I disagree with him on some of the finer points of training, but he has a phenomenal program practically every year.

Working your ass off and believing in a program is all well and good, but it isn't going to matter if all you do is jog 20 miles a week and do some 200s. Training matters most. Buying into training, believing in the team, etc., is all important too, and is necessary to succeed at the top level, but you just cannot become a top team without great training. So I don't want to hear about how hard-working and dedicated the kids and FM or York or Neuqua Valley are—that's a GIVEN. I want to know about training.

Dasgermans wrote:

The physiology behind training. Not just the biology, but how to apply it to your training. It's basically a lot of stuff Vigil does. Tell Vigil training isn't scientific.

It's both the science and the art to coaching that make programs successful.

Waitin'.......................

BUMP for FM secrets (lol not really).

uh oh is right wrote:

Wow! FM is definitely my pick for NXN this year. My 2-5 team predictions have changed a bit though.

Before

1. FM (NY)

2. Saratoga Springs (NY)

3. Saugus (CA)

4. North Shore (NY)

5. Simi Valley (CA)

After

1. FM (NY)

2. Saugus (CA)

3. North Shore (NY)

4. Saratoga Springs (NY)

5. Simi Valley (CA)

As is, saugus and simi will smoke saratoga and north shore.

They dont need the 8th graders to do that.

FM is too far ahead right now with those 4-5-6 year veterans. Get back to me when the playing field is level.

There are only 800 kids in North Shore HS. They have had 4 8th graders move up since 2004. I think Cali has the advantage here with sometimes 3000+ students in some of their schools (I don't know the exact number, just know it's way more than North Shore). To be fair, maybe their should be a small school race for schools like North Shore and Tatnall.

cali would win wrote:

Get back to me when the playing field is level.

The playing field will never be equal in sports, period. Enough of the whining, California. Your problems with NXN have nothing to do with NY having middle schoolers. Which of the following is the favorite CA excuse (seems to depend on the given year)?

A) NY has mid-schoolers.

B) Mud.

C) The CA racing schedule.

D) Lack of experience running in spikes.

E) All of the above.

Back to a level playing field. Do you really expect everything to be equal? Do you realize most of the country doesn't have the "advantages" that CA does? How about your enormous population and great weather? Will CA teams take it easy when other parts of the country are dealing with 3 feet of snow and below freezing temps?

Maybe Nike should add some divisions to NXN to level the playing field. National championships could be awarded by any one of the following:

A) Enrollment.

B) Public and private school divisions.

C) Metro area and rural divisions.

D) Mud course champion and a dry course champion.

E) Average temperature divisions.

BTW, I'm not from NY (actually live "out west"), but get tired of hearing CA make excuses. From my experiences, NY high school coaches, including Bill Aris and the Kranicks, are far more humble and unassuming than the CA coaches. Heck, every top NY coach I've met has been great to visit with. Can't say the same for the coaches of the top CA programs. Get over yourselves.

imbalanced playing field?

fm girls: number 1 and 4 from nxn '10 out for season (rutledge, martin)

fm girls: 2 in current top 7 never ran xc b4 (smith/avery)

fm girls: big deal, one 8th grader, first in 5 yrs

fm boys: graduate top 2 from '10 nxn runnerup

fm boys: number 2 never ran xc b4 (deyo)

fm boys: 4 guys in top 7 in '11, jv in '10 (farrell, fitzgibbons, malone, millar)

yeah, unfair advantage, keep complaining.

couldn't be dedication, work, coaching, could it?

Explain how FM and NY girls have dominated for the past seven years.If it's coaching or NY water or toughness or whatever, explain why the NY boys have not achieved the same dominance.If you look at the boy's side of NXN, York, Southlake Carroll, The Woodlands and FM have all demonstrated that they're great programs. But one team and one state doesn't dominate year after year as on the girl's side.Why do the FM girls alone among all these great programs win again and again?Why doesn't such single team and single state dominance occur in any other nationally competed sport?

"Why doesn't such single team and single state dominance occur in any other nationally competed sport?"

Part of it has to do with the "second-tier" aspect of cross country. There are powerhouse football and basketball teams that are great year in and year out for the same reasons that F-M dominates. It's much more noticeable in F-M's case because there is a national meet in cross country. Also, because football and basketball are much bigger deals throughout the country, it's more difficult for a single school or even single state to dominate nationally.

Do you really think the results would of changed the last 5 years had FM not been allowed to use 7th and 8th graders? Like they needed a middle schooler to win NXN the last 5 years. Many of their runners have made the transition from soccer to XC, and some never ran prior to.

Again FM had a 8th grader who finished as their #5 in 2006 at NXN, but if you take her out of the results they still would have won!

Get over the mud for heavens sake. So if their is mud a CA team cant run "its" race?? and the CA schedule? whats so different about the CA schedule compared to NY? Yes teams can skip feds, but many dont and FM has won the NXN championship twice (2006 by 50 points and 2007 by 88 points!) while running the FEDS.

Lack of experience running is spikes- hahhahaha thats funny.

But i guess the 7th and 8th graders is the "new" excuse for many fans, last couple of years it had been the weather and mud.

Regarding why it is only the Girls team that can dominate, the previous poster is right on the mark. It is obviously a question of the talent level in the sport. Even in boys xc the talent level is sufficiently high that it is nearly impossible for one team to dominate year after year with different athletes. York is an awesome boys program as is North Central, Naperville, FM... there are a bunch of them out there, and with great coaching they can be competitive at a national level, but none of them can dominate year after year because the talent level throughout the country is too high. You need to have the great program, PLUS an exceptional year in terms of talent to break through and actually win. CBA has been a great program for years, but perhaps this is the year that the talent is there to win it all (or fill in whatever other team you like this year)

Girls xc is quite frankly simply not as competitive. Before it was FM it was Saratoga in the late 90´s and early 00's, but it is possible for one team to dominate because the talent level just isn't there. It is easier to dominate when there isn`t nearly the competition.

Why did it happen to be Saratoga and FM, two team from the same state (Hilton is the other NTN winner, but that seems to be more of a one-off shot)? That is a great question. Great coaches, great competition all around, those are the answers that first come to head, but I don`t know.

5000m

My response was directed towards Cali would win

Agreed with everything you wrote

First off, Saratoga is a proven program when it comes to big races. Now to my main point, those 4-5-6 year veterans of FM. hmm... last time i checked they have one 4 year veteran who had a broken leg her first year (would that make her a 3 year veteran?). Another 3 year, two 2 years, an 8th grader (1st year), and two 1st years. Id say the playing field is about as even as the teams make it. whoever approaches there daily training the best will succeed, especially if they have a coach named bill aris.