Listen and Listen GOOD about EMU....

LDO wrote:

O.K. The next time you all see Scott Hubbard, he will look something like Steve Crane does now.

Say what? Um, I don't get it. Is that supposed to be a slam on me? This thread is INDEED degenerating and it's time to close it out. The detractors have nothing constructive to offer and won't identify themselves. Cheap shots suck.

Chris Los, Glad that you are sticking up for EMU. We were happy to have you. Your other school, BG, unfortunately, dropped our beloved sport of track and field. I hope things are going well for you. Bob Parks.

Hi Scott, Our l972 team took l3th in the NCAA, the l973 team l2th and the l974 team 6th. In l974 we were 2-3-4-ll-l3 in the regional and only one team has ever done better, Wisc. in l985 (they also won the NCAA that year). We will see how the Hurons do this year in both the regional and the NCAA (if they get there--they should). I would guess they will not equal the l940 team, which got 2nd in the NCAA, but it was a much different meet then. A very good team in l974 (they didn't run all that great at the big dance), but this year's team is very good too. We'll see what sorts out in the next two weeks. Thanks to all the current EMU runners and the alums for defending the program, which really doesn't need defending. Earl Jones is a good guy, with tremendous ability, who doesn't deserve to be trashed and neither do the many people who have helped or tried to help him along the way. Dr. Gordon Minty, Dr. Erik Henriksen, two great former Huron runners and students would tell you their athletic careers and academic careers couldn't have gone better. Dr. Ron DeVore (I coached him in HS) might be the biggest academic achiever of all. He is head of math research at S.Carolina and a sought-after speaker and consultant all over the wall. A much better academician than athlete. By the way, he had to go to night school to graduate from HS, but found himself at EMU. Go Hurons at the MAC, and, though they are a rival, I would certainly rather see Central qualify (behind Eastern) than a bunch of schools with far more money than the MAC schools have. Bob Parks.

Coach Parks,

Seeing Erik Henriksen's name reminded me of my first outdoor MAC meet in which Earl Jones and Erik led a 1-2-3 Eastern Sweep in the 1500 with all three qualifying for the NCAA meet! My first thought was "Holy Crap" what have I gotten my self into. My second thought was that I had better train like never before that summer. Not wanting to get pummelled by the guys wearing green and gold was the motivation for many a great training session over the next 2 years after that!

Good luck to all the MAC schools at the regional meet.

Hey Coach! Ah, man, it's fun to look back as I'd hope you would. I knew after both the '72 & '73 NCAA meets that our teams had underachieved. I don't know why some guys came unraveled (including me in '72) but the '74 team sure put it together! I've always envied that group because all of them were former teammates. Anybody that looks at the all-time track times you (and Doug) compiled can see just how fast those guys were. I'm so proud of my mile PR that it's my bank PIN number. How cool is that? Well, it's slower than brother Don's but he and I ran on some potent teams at EMU in the mid-70's and that's worth 'bragging' about.

To the current team, one piece of advice for the upcoming big meets: DON'T THINK, just run. If you must think, imagine the meets are dual meets against Central. That should help you focus! And, like Coach, I too hope CMU qualifies (behind EMU) and does the MAC proud.

I too ran in the MAC in the time period many are discussing. To the EMU contingent from the 70's & early 80's: Did, or do you get a lot of static about EMU being a renegade school finding 5th, 6th, or more years for athletes, getting some poor students into school that couldn't get in other places, etc.? This was always the rumor and persona of EMU at the time. Many other MAC athletes felt they were not on a level playing field. This 'victim' attitude probably held many athletes back. Have you heard this over the years? As an 18 year old, I would've believed just about anything negative about an opponent, true or not. I always liked competing against EMU because I knew they were tough and would give you a good tussle. The above is in no way a slam toward EMU, but an honest perception. Can you shed any light on feedback you've heard about EMU from others away from Yipsilanti? Thanks.

Ohioan, I could wait for Bob to respond but will add my .02 worth first. I don't remember much grumbling about who EMU admitted in the '70's and who got an extra year of eligibilty but wouldn't be surprised if it happened. I recall Gordon Minty being given an extra year, if you can call it that, because it was determined that whatever racing he did in his soph year wasn't enough to count against his eligibilty. I don't think anybody has been given a sixth year to compete. Now, of course, schools nationwide are 'redshirting' runners deliberately for extra 'seasoning'.

Per poor students getting admitted (which I'm sure you mean not-good-grades-and-college-entrance-exam students), well, there might be something to that but bear in mind that once enrolled they're required to meet school and NCAA standards to compete. Nowadays, of course, there're lots of students getting into school who have to prove they can do the classwork before being allowed to compete after a year. If we take a look at the argument that those marginal students were given 'cake' classes to stay eligible, well, that stuff takes place, and always has, at all schools all the time. But, again, they all have to show that they're moving along in a recognizable degree program to stay eligible. If folks have trouble w/that degree program, that's a whole other debate.

I remember coming to an Indoor EMU meet my junior year in high school to watch Ben Reese and the Arkansas DMR. Surprisingly, when I was finishing my senior year of collegiate running, so was Ben Reese. I think EMU really knows how to milk the NCAA for as much eligibility as they can. I guess if it is legal then there is nothing wrong with it. It does seem like Eastern is always getting 5 and 6 years out of it's runners and the foreign situation is even more unusual. I remember a guy named Lee Shaw who ran 2 years at Siena Heights and 5 at Eastern. I am not trying to rip on EMU, this has just been my experience.

I would also like to respond to your question. I started out at Bowling Green in 80, transferred to EMU in the fall of 82 and graduated in 84. I had the privilege of running for 2 of the classiest coaches around; Mel Brodt at BG and Bob Parks at Eastern. I had the unique opportunity to see 2 programs. Both programs I felt were run above board. As to the allegations that are being put forth that Eastern was some kind of renagade running factory - it is rubbish. Yes it is true that sometimes you get an athlete from a distressed or less than optimal high school background. I saw that in both schools...I can assure you that neither school I attended pulled their weight to keep an academically modest student eligible other than attending an easy phys ed class or whatnot. This goes on everywhere. In fact, I actually had a prof at Eastern that was biased against me because I was an athlete. I witnessed animosity towards Eastern and basically it was nothing more than jealousy. We trained hard and had the benefit of a field house. Good runners came there because other good runners were there. It was as simple as that. Lets take the high road people! To those that are trashing EMU - how would you feel about faceless people spewing insults at your school? It is sad to see the degree of hatefulness on display today. It is also weak and counterproductive. To you guys on other teams you should be happy to compete against the best competition you can find. Enjoy it! And good luck to ALL MAC team competing in XC!

OR, I don't know the particulars about Ben, who incidentally is British, or Lee but as you said, if what EMU did is legal then there's nothing wrong w/it. EMU does not do things independent of NCAA rules.

It's good that you brought this topic up because I'm sure lots of folks outside of the EMU family have wondered similar things. Another thread and one that's been debated heavily for a LONG time (and will continue to be) is about foreign athletes at US colleges. There've been foreign athletes in America for many decades. U of Mich has had some since at least the early 50's (NCAA 2 mile champ Don McEwen of Canada). I think it's a good deal to have them here for athletic, social and cultural reasons plus they're free to enroll here anyway.

I did not mean for my post to start a 'pile on EMU' onslaught. My qustion was if EMU coaches and athletes heard these types of things and what they thought about these perceptions, true or not. Thanks for your insight.

Correction Ryan,

It is YOU and your teamates who are making your team like like asses.

Hold on. I was a teammate of Lee Shaw's at Siena Heights College in 1995. He ran 0 years of cross country at Siena. We could not get his transcripts in time for him to be eligible in the fall of 1994 for cross.

He then ran 1 year of indoor (we were 3rd NAIA 4x8).

He then ran 1 year of outdoor(3:52 1500m NAIA semifinalist).

He then at my and several teammates urging, left for EMU because we could not afford to keep him. (Small school budget) EMU had money to give him so he left and ran at EMU.

Lets recap the FACTS of this case you brought up:

1) Lee Shaw NEVER ran 2 years at Siena Heights.FACT.

2) Lee Shaw NEVER ran 5 years at EMU. FACT.

Anything else I, you or anyone else could say about this particular case, FALSE.

By the way, I'm not exactly EMU's biggest fan in all of this. Hell, I even questioned the eligibility of Clement Chuckwu because I thought I knew the J.C. guys pretty well. But if Bob Parks says a guy is eligible, you respect that almost as if it came from the Bible itself the man is so respected. Reese ? No comment ONLY because the guy was never a teammate of mine like Lee was.

As far as the whole mess from the MAC meet, I would have to say I wished that the EMU guys and thier coaches in the future will put as much time and effort as they have in protesting during and after the race (via the meet protest and this website) into learning the course before the race. Best of luck to EMU and CMU, and can we please give this thing a rest?

"You are trying to make a valid point right?"

In this sentence, you clearly should have placed a comma before the word "right". As it is written, your sentence implies that you are asking the previous poster if they are trying to right a valid point, whatever that might mean. There are a few other imperfections in your post, but picking people's grammar and spelling apart is really f***ing dull, especially when it has absolutely nothing to do with the debate about the EMU XC program.

God, this place is full of idiots... arguing over a school program. I dont't know of the school program, but I do know that athlete should take full responsibility of his academics. The school gives you a scholar ship, gives you a chance to train... YOU TRAIN AND GO TO SCHOOL. Can it get easier than that!

You don't f***ing expect the coaches to go school for you or do you? Or maybe you are from one of those schools where coaches call to professor's... My athlete needs an C to be eligible.

I know it might make your self esteem and ego grow when you trash other people/institutions, but that just proves you live in naive, narrow minded bubble. Sure hell does not sound that you ever graduated and if you did I just wonder how... Support of the university?