Lukas Verzbicas in Historical Context

Top places by US high school runners in the world Jr. meet.

1st. Rich Kimball 1974

1st. Bobby Thomas 1975

1st. Eric Hulst 1976

1st. Thom Hunt 1977

4th. Jeff Nelson 1979

3rd. Ritz 2001

Added Thomas. And Hunt also finished 2nd in 76.

But let's not forget that these runners compared very favorably with runners in any era in both XC and track. Kimball, for example ran 4:02 and 8:43, and his 8:46/4:06 at the CA meet was the 2nd fastest double ever after Fernandez.

concord wrote:

Kimball, for example ran 4:02 and 8:43, and his 8:46/4:06 at the CA meet was the 2nd fastest double ever after Fernandez.

Maybe 2nd fastest in Cali. Sage went 8:42/4:07.

someone else wrote:

Was Withrow on the same level as Rupp? Was Fout on the same level as Fernandez, Derrick, Puskedra or Lowe?

How are you measuring 'same level'? In terms of raw ability, I'd argue he was every bit as good as Rupp. He may not have the same ability to train and take a pounding without getting hurt, but I think he had the raw talent to run fast that Rupp did.

Skinny American wrote:

I beat Wheating and Manzano in NCAA cross. I am the greatest NCAA runner of all time?

It's worth noting that beating a great miler in high school cross is much more significant than beating a great miler in NCAA XC. In high school, not only is the championship race HALF as long, but the maximum distance for a common track race is 2 miles (yeah, they have the 5K at Nike Outdoor Nationals, but it's not an event people run often). So in NCAAs, a lot of your great cross runners will be training for a 5K or a 10K year round, while a lot of milers will only train for the 1500 and the 800 during the track season (though the ones who train for the 1500/5K do have an advantage in cross). In high school, everyone's training for the 1600/mile and the 3200/3K/two mile during the track season, so there's not so much of a gap in the amount of base work the milers and the longer distance guys do. Add that to the fact that Webb was a monster in high school cross (I ran in northern Virginia, and his records are untouchable), and I'd say that what Ritz's enormous victory was pretty damn impressive.

giffypop17 wrote:

Maybe 2nd fastest in Cali. Sage went 8:42/4:07.

Well, that was for 1600/3200 vs. Kimball's mile/2 mile. With conversions Kimball's combined time was slightly faster. But Sage's performance was great, nonetheless.

someone else wrote:

It's supposed to be "would have", not would of.

Yeah, sure it is. If that were true, then my 9 years of hard study at Professor Bushwrinkle's Online Diploma Mill would of been for nothing. This is all a bunch of mindless dribble, I tell you.

Would of, could of, should of, didn't of. So there!

So, you are an idiot.

Gotcha! It's "your an idiot." How's that for irony?

olle olle wrote:

He could've easily taken that stupid Detweiller course record down that year (I say 13:40).

You realize Chris Derrick didn't break this record? I know you think that Chris Derrick isn't near as good as the rest of these guys since he didn't win Footlocker, but Derrick has placed 7th, 3rd and 5th at the NCAA championships these past three years, which is better the first two years than Ritz did. I wish we could compare times but they were on different courses.

I'm not saying Ritz wouldn't have given the record a good run or maybe broken it, but that record is a lot tougher than it seems. He certainly wouldn't have broken it by 12 seconds.

2 Legit 2 Quit wrote:

olle olle wrote:

He could've easily taken that stupid Detweiller course record down that year (I say 13:40).

You realize Chris Derrick didn't break this record? I know you think that Chris Derrick isn't near as good as the rest of these guys since he didn't win Footlocker, but Derrick has placed 7th, 3rd and 5th at the NCAA championships these past three years, which is better the first two years than Ritz did. I wish we could compare times but they were on different courses.

I'm not saying Ritz wouldn't have given the record a good run or maybe broken it, but that record is a lot tougher than it seems. He certainly wouldn't have broken it by 12 seconds.

He would have crushed it, and I say that as an Illinois guy.

Read what some other people have been saying about Ritz- 14:10 5k at his state meet, breaking the course record of a footlocker top 5 guy by over 40 seconds.

He also ran 14:34 at Parkside, which is usually 50-65 seconds slower than Detweiller.

Then, of course, he won nationals in dominating fashion over Ritz and Hall, and placed third in a World Jr Xc race that Bekele won.

Derrick is great, but he was also racing for a team title that day, and had a full slate of postseason races ahead of him. Ritz wasn't encumbered by either of those things, and was on another level to begin with. That= 13:30s at Detweiller, insane as it sounds.

Bobby Thomas was in college when he won.

Kimball's best 2 mile in HS was 8;46, not 8;43.

Correct on both counts.

Verzbicas only beat Cheserek by 2 seconds. Cheserek was repeatedly soundly beaten by Rosa this year. Rosa did blow up in the race, but I think based on his performance at regionals he would have pushed Verzbicas at the very least. If you're getting pushed by people you aren't the best of all time, sorry.

Beyond that, I don't see anything Verzbicas has done that would make him the best ever: Solid but not unbelievable track times, didn't break Virgin's record, didn't destroy the field at NXN and in fact was getting closed on.

TrackCoach wrote:

The Real UncleB wrote:

I think Pre was a pretty good high school cross country runner. His college performance was not bad either

You absolutely correct about Pre; he definitely one of the best. Pre was very good his junior and incredible senior year, but he was unhead of his first 2 years, whereas Lukas was good from day one. I know track and XC are two differnt things, but remember Lukas ran a 14:18 5000 on an indoor track two years ago easily beating Solomon Haile who was the FLNC Champ; I think Lukas possibly could have won FLNC in '08.

he did not beat solomon in anything indoor, Solomon broke the indoor 5k record at NSIC and then couple hrs later Lukas broke the new record at nike.....get your facts straight. the only time they raced was at the mid west distance gala in the 2mile where Lukas outkicked Solomon, at Nike outdoor Solomon won the 5k where Lukas was 2nd in the 2mile the Trevor Dunbar.

deinitelydsds wrote:

As the guy above me said, Ritz showed up every time and crushed fields. Lukas won by 2 seconds or something at NXN, and that wasn't against any Alan Webbs, Ryan Halls, Don Sages, Andy Powells, Matt Tegenkamps, etc. Not to mention Lukas ran like 15:00 last year at footlocker when Ritz ran 14:29 at the same age.

As far as all these track times mentioned, I'm not sure what they have to do with cross country. You can list time after time after time with top ten performances and sub 9 two miles but the fact of the matter is Ritz decimated fields in cross country every weekend.

I think Lukas would be the best if he was a full time runner starting last year, however.

The only thing wrong with this post is that Ritz ran 14:29 as a junior on the Orlando course, a much faster course than Balboa Park unless its wet. The previous course record was held by Eric Reynolds at 14:38.

Why is 7-3-5 better than 4-redshirt/injured-1?

Ritz ran 29:11, finishing 4th at Furman (more difficult than ISU's course) as a freshman.

Makes no sense.

I think Ritz's 3rd place at World Cross (and as pointed out Bekele won and the guys around him weren't slouches either) is additional icing on the cake naming him the best HS XC runner.

It has already been pointed out that he was undefeated his last 2 years in cross country, AND his senior year he absolutely dominated his races (he ran for more than the win i.e. his 14:10 at MIS). But times are so relative to conditions in cross country, his senior year at Orlando it was hot temperatures. What I find impressive is that Dathan's 20 second winning margin is tied for the largest winning margin at FL... and his winning margin was over Alan Webb. And nobody would have known that Webb was going to be as fast as he would be later that year, but didn't Webb break Ryun's HS junior (or was it sophomore?) record in the mile?

IMO HS milers are also much better relative in HS cross than NCAA cross because of the 5k vs 10k distance.

Lukas was actually 3rd in that race. Dunbar and Zach Wills were ahead of him.

giffypop17 wrote:

And while everyone focused on 'the big three' in the fall of 2000, and how Ritz owned Webb in that race, I was honestly more impressed with his title as a junior. He was younger, his time was faster, and the others gave him a much better fight. The big three in 2000 may have been the best top 3 in any class, but that 1999 race had the deepest top ten of any HS race, probably ever.

Small disagreement. The '85 Kinney Championship was a bit deeper through the top 10 (on probably a tougher course than Orlando), but the '99 race was deeper through the top 5. Those are probably the two top Kinney/FL National races.

I have a videotape of the ESPN broad cast of the 1985 race. The two favorites were Rueben Reina and John Trautman, the previous years runner-up who would run 8:05 for 3000 in the spring. Also in the race was Mark Dani 8:49 indoor two mile, Marc Davis the next years' champ, the Mastalir Brothers (4:04, 8:07, 8:44 3200 ansd 14:01) and John Hume who would run close to 14:50 at the 85 race.

The pace was modest at the mile, 4:40, but Troy Maddux pushed the second mile hard.

Reina won by a lot, I think 10 seconds at least, and broke the course record by 15 seconds.

The Footlocker 1999 race was incredible. Dobson pushed the pace like an animal, and Teg looked tiny. Webb shuffled the last 800 meters and still ran 15:05.

1 14:29 Dathan Ritzenhein

2 14:33 Donald Sage

3 14:34 Ian Dobson

4 14:36 Josh Rohatinsky

5 14:47 Matthew Tegenkamp

6 14:50 Tim Keller

7 14:56 Danny Coval

8 15:05 Alan Webb

giffypop17 wrote:

How are you measuring 'same level'? In terms of raw ability, I'd argue he was every bit as good as Rupp. He may not have the same ability to train and take a pounding without getting hurt, but I think he had the raw talent to run fast that Rupp did.

The ability to train hard and not get injured is a talent. A very valuable one in distance running.