Waldemar Cierpinski

Now, that's a good post that introduces exactly into the topic and incidentally shows how the doping discussions are going.

The argumentation strategy after the pattern "I know someone who says that (...) and that's why (...)" or "The great runner X claims" or "You must be wrong because I am right" is ultimately a blow of allegations. The reader can't know what is right, who is dirty, who is clean and so on. That's why I want to hold back and why I don't believe in black and white painting.

I grew up in the time of the Cold War and the general thinking was that our athletes were invariably clean and those in the Eastern bloc were cheaters. But this is black and white painting. We were cruelly awake when the turn came in 1989/90 and lots of runners from the former east came to the local and regional races and kicked our a$$es, wearing old shoes and clothes in the Eastern bloc style. We talked to them and it became clear that they were just well trained and beginning in the schools, the talents in all sports disciplines were spotted. The mentality was also very focused.

Long story short: We know about systematic doping in the GDR in the elite level, but the training methods were also sophisticated and not everybody was a cheater. I am unable to judge wether W.C. has doped but I am very sure that he was a great talent, that his results were in the line with the top and last but not least he trained much better and more effectively than Frank Shorter.

I will give a real academic historian Erkki Vettenniemi to speak on my behalf, because he is not only a real historian with academic credentials, but has also published extensively on the history endurance running and on the doping issue. Here is what he wrote about the subject in his 2014 book History of the Finnish Endurance Running about the 1950s:

Obviously what Cierpinski did worked very well. But if the East Germans were, as the quote says, ten years ahead of all other nations with regard to effective training methods, and I'd even include doping methods here, it seems that they should have produced more top level distance runners than they did . They did well for a country their size but that happens now and again (New Zealand, Hungary, Finland). But I think the only other world class marathoner they produced was Eckhard Lesse whose best was 2:12, I believe, a time which plenty of runners from countries that were not ten years ahead of all others were running. Below the marathon there was Werner Schildhauer in the 10,000, Olaf Beyer in the 800, and years earlier Jurgen May in the 1500 and 5,000. May was a big "Lydiard" guy,the East Germans were very fond of Lydiard and brought him to the country more than once.

But you can't simply look at one big success and say the person who had it had it because his training was better than everyone else's. At the time a lot of Shorter's success in the marathon was attributed to the fact that he did NOT train like a marathoner but rather like a track man who also ran enough miles to do well at marathons and whose track training allowed him to toss in a sub 4:40 mile here and there which his competitors, who were not track men couldn't match. And Shorter was not physically whole in Montreal. He had trouble with his foot which was the beginning of the end for him. He was never the same runner after Montreal as he'd been before.

So yes, maybe Cierpinski used drugs and that was the reason he was able to beat Shorter. Or maybe it was because everyone who thought training like a track guy was the key were wrong that and training like a marathoner really was the answer after all, that it was Shorter had been the outlier. Or maybe Cierpinski was ascending at a time when Shorter was descending. Given what went on in East Germany you have to consider seriously the idea that he drugged his way to a win. But there were stories at the time which said he was really an outsider within the DDR's sport system and sometimes at odds with officials for his preference for going his own way. So maybe not using drugs was part of going his own way. He has not had the kinds of physical issues that many of the drugged DDR athletes have had in later life.

Who is more suspicious of being a cheat, Cierpinski or Griffith-Joyner?

People are more suspicious of the East Germans than Americans.

Cierpinski is still talked about at the National Tennis Center. Shorter is still talked about at Boston and New York marathons. It was a duel for the ages.

HRE wrote:

Below the marathon there was Werner Schildhauer in the 10,000, Olaf Beyer in the 800, and years earlier Jurgen May in the 1500 and 5,000. May was a big "Lydiard" guy,the East Germans were very fond of Lydiard and brought him to the country more than once.

.

Frank Baumgartl, Detlev Wagenknecht, Jürgen Straub, Hansjörg Kunze and Hagen Melzer - to name just the most successfull.

In the 1960s Siegfried Herrmann and Siegfried Valentin were setting World Records!

But for sure the GDR wasn't anything close in (mens) distance running as they were in the field events (and also the sprints). Not at all to talk about the women...

Too many words on the doping thing.... It's a mute point anyways because the Kenyans and Etheopians are blasting their times out of the park with or without the aid of dope.

Closely looked at video feed. Cierpinski has:

Excellent foot plant: Lands on ball of feet

Excellent arm drive: Highly economical pendeleam movement - world class.

Stride length, posture: Perfect for height, pace, and distance. Perfect posture. Model world class runner. He reminds me of Vincent Rousseau of Belgium, another world class runner.

NOTE: American runners need to stop being Jealous (If they're really being accused of this) and put in the miles!!!! The last time Americans had 20 percent of their marathoners go under 2:16 for the marathon was during the height of the Greater Boston Track Club hey day when Bill Rodgers, Greg Meyer, Tom Fleming, Alberto Salazar who were ALL running 120-200 mile weeks. Again, they believed in Arthur Lydiard style training and THIS is what it takes to be world class (Along with mile repeats, etc.).

(Continued)

Yiannis Kouros of Greece is using this method as an ultra marathoner and how may world records does he have? 71 or so???

To my great German friends: Cannot forget Dieter Bauman and Dr. Thomas Wessinhage (Spelling could be wrong...sorry). Two more great German runners ...There was another German middle distance God who pushed New Zealand miler John Walker to first place in the Montreal Olympics but I forgot his name....super runner also !!!

Monte wrote:

Cannot forget Dieter Bauman

Most of here can't either as he was pinged for EPO, you know, the sabotaged toothpaste? So probably appropriate you mentioned him on a Waldemar Cierpinski thread.

Monte wrote:

To my great German friends: Cannot forget Dieter Bauman and Dr. Thomas Wessinhage (Spelling could be wrong...sorry). Two more great German runners ...There was another German middle distance God who pushed New Zealand miler John Walker to first place in the Montreal Olympics but I forgot his name....super runner also !!!

Bauman was busted and served a ban for doping. ?

Walde was doped. He told me his reward from the GDR State for winning gold was a holiday in Cuba for him and his wife, so Shorter came out ahead on that score and still is. His wife was an 800m runner, she also was doped. You couldn't be part of the GDR system without doping of some kind.

Kszczot wrote:

Who is more suspicious of being a cheat, Cierpinski or Griffith-Joyner?

People are more suspicious of the East Germans than Americans.

When I think "doping in the '80s", FloJo is the first name that comes to mind. Yes, even before Ben Johnson.

said88 wrote:

HRE wrote:

Below the marathon there was Werner Schildhauer in the 10,000, Olaf Beyer in the 800, and years earlier Jurgen May in the 1500 and 5,000. May was a big "Lydiard" guy,the East Germans were very fond of Lydiard and brought him to the country more than once.

.

Frank Baumgartl, Detlev Wagenknecht, Jürgen Straub, Hansjörg Kunze and Hagen Melzer - to name just the most successfull.

In the 1960s Siegfried Herrmann and Siegfried Valentin were setting World Records!

But for sure the GDR wasn't anything close in (mens) distance running as they were in the field events (and also the sprints). Not at all to talk about the women...

Jurgen Haase was 2 time European champion in the 10,000m.

East Germany had many great walkers too.

- Peter Frenkel

- Hans-Georg Reimann

- Ronald Weigel

- Christoph Hohne

- Hartwig Gauder

Aragon wrote:

[quote]Lets Tell It Like It Is wrote:

I don't know where you're coming up with that - I'm convinced there was a USSR blood doping program:

Perhaps I articulated badly, because I do think that it is more likely than not that the Soviets were blood doping, but only only meant that the evidence is surprisingly thin compared to how much it is taken as given.

That's because the Soviets were very good at covering up secrets.

GDR wrote:

Jurgen Haase was 2 time European champion in the 10,000m.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwyA3sfEED4

For sure - Jürgen Haase.

1971 European 10000m - for any distance running fan with some historical interest probably one of the most memorable races.

Subway Surfers wrote:

... the Soviets were very good at covering up secrets.

They were so secretive that when some American journalists visited Soviet Union in 1974, the physiologists told them that they were interested in testing whether the "Swedish" the blood doping - hypothesis was sound, and they later published some findings in at least one English language journal for everyone to read.

And simultaneously they were so secretive that barely no news outlet has been able to get a word about the existence of the blood doping program from these numerous "[m]iddle- and long distance swimmers, cyclists, rowers, skiers, biathlon athletes, and skaters" (Kalinsky, 2003).