Are you saying she has been your fiance for SEVEN YEARS? Whats taking so long?!
Are you saying she has been your fiance for SEVEN YEARS? Whats taking so long?!
XX wrote:
I would agree with mandarin mostly, with a tiny bit of match.com thrown in. I think jealousy is unattractive and will not endear you to your fiance, but maybe you don't really care about that. snooping is bad news cause it gives you information you can't use constructively - you will give your fiance the excuse to fixate on the snooping ("you don't trust me!") and as though it's somehow exculpatory for her inappropriate behavior. I think what your fiance did was not necessarily evidence that she's like the devil incarnate, or even a cheater, but you two are clearly having issues right now.
I think you have to ask yourself if you love her and still want to marry her, and for that matter, if you trust her. You know her better than any of us do. If you can answer those questions honestly, go with your instincts. I'm a woman, and I personally think that if she wasn't cheating, she was being manipulative, inflammatory and passive aggressive. Wedding planning can be irritating and stressful, and you guys might have been fighting over inane trivial bull-sh*t a lot lately, so this was her charming way of getting under your skin. She was flattered by the flirtation and attention of another dude and wanted to piss you off. She knew it would annoy you, just as she would have gone postal if you had gone out for 5 hours with another chick.
You should have waited til she came home and talked to her about her behavior. You should not have called the dude. I'm tempted to say you shouldn't have snooped, but it wasn't really snooping because she left the email in her inbox and her account logged in on a shared computer, so she knew at any given time you could see it. In fact, I'd argue in some subconscious way she left it to say "neener neener look here's a guy who pays attention to me." Whatever his marital problems, it has nothing to do (fundamentally) with you and your fiance. He's just one of many guys who might try to flirt and/or sleep with her, just as there will be many women who will flirt and/or try to sleep with you.
I think one possibility is that your fiance for whatever reason feels unappreciated or abandoned by you lately, or just pissy about your behavior, and wanted to be super immature about getting back at you. Call her out on it, but first admit you were wrong in calling the guy. Ask her WTF and if she really wants this wedding to happen. Say that in the future if she has issues with you or your relationship, act like a grown up, use her words, and have a conversation with you about it and resort to throwing tantrums.
Let's think a little deeper here. Jealousy is not unattractive -- certain expressions of jealous are unattractive.
Particularly physically or verbally violent jealous, or, jealousy without LOYALTY.
Jealousy with loyalty, expressed gently openly and honestly as a human weakness or vulnerability, is something can be understood, and that one can make consideration for.
I.E., I had a girlfriend who had never been jealous in her life...until she dated me, and saw that other women responded to my energy...and she got real jealous. She didn't rage, swear or anything nasty. She just expressed it, explained it to me, and I reassured her and communicated to her clearly that I would not only never cheat on her, but that I understood how these things work (attraction between men and women) and that it was not in my core values to cheat. She was never jealous again. (I later broke up with her for other reasons, but jealous wasn't a factor.)
Silly Old Fossil wrote:
The OP is 100% right on savaging the other guy. There is an unwritten male creed about not pursuing a woman who is already taken. The other guy was blatantly making a play for her (he knew her situation)....45 minute train ride each way, yeah right.
I would call him up again and reem him some more.
Your fiance will actually appreciate you asserting your manhood....even if she never admits it to you.
OP, you did absolutely the right thing....this was not jealousy....you correctly deduced HIS motives.
I only wish you would show up at his front door.
This is a MYTH. There is no unwritten male creed.
SOME men are raised to be classy, and not pursue a woman who is taken. Only this woman showed the signs of not being taken.
And if you don't think that after a certain age most worthwhile women are already in a relationship -- and that most women get out of relationships by setting up another one on the side...that you really are a blind fossil.
To the OP:
What the hell does "I love her" mean?
Can you even define the term "love"? --I doubt it. Did you get your concept of love from researching the subject?
Or from movies, television and pop songs?
More likely you are accustomed to having her, and afraid of losing her, and confuse that fear of loss with love.
............... wrote:
Silly Old Fossil wrote:The OP is 100% right on savaging the other guy. There is an unwritten male creed about not pursuing a woman who is already taken. The other guy was blatantly making a play for her (he knew her situation)....45 minute train ride each way, yeah right.
I would call him up again and reem him some more.
Your fiance will actually appreciate you asserting your manhood....even if she never admits it to you.
OP, you did absolutely the right thing....this was not jealousy....you correctly deduced HIS motives.
I only wish you would show up at his front door.
Hahaha. This absurd belief in an "unwritten creed" is what gets guys cheated on. I know because in my younger days I slept with plenty of girls who were in relationships and I never once felt bad because THEY chose to do it because their boyfriends weren't getting it done.
The OP didn't assert any manhood, he called the guy then came to a message board and bitched. Jealous guys get cheated on all the time because they are horribly insecure and it turns women off. Being territorial and being jealous are not the same thing.
Church. This is exactly right. Guys may be pussy hounds, but women are attention whores. They cheat as much as guys do.
stuck with match.com wrote:
City Seeker wrote:no wonder stuck with match.com is stuck with match.com
Panzy!
No its called being a man and owning up to your mistakes. I believe the OP should have done something because this dude is a creep looking to score with her, however he approached it the wrong way. Because he approached it the wrong way he should apologize for that.
Mistake 1
He went snooping through her email, sort of. I know the email was out there but its still snooping somewhat
Mistake 2
He went out of this way to find the guys number and to call him. He made himself appear to his fiance like a jealous possesive man.
Here is what he should have done
When she came back from the dinner he should have talked her and expressed his concerns. Tell her that he didn't feel comfortable with this guy who he thought was hitting her and clearly making an attempt to get with her. Tell her he doesn't mind if he's a friend, but the whole romantic dinner and 45 minute train ride just seemed too much. That is perfectly reasonable. If the guy continues to persist and continues to go after her, then yes he could have said something to her. Like hey leave her alone she's getting married to me.
I'm not bashing you OP, I know how emotions can get the best of us, especially when it is with someone we love so much. I've been there before, I've done things very similar to this, so I can relate to all that you did. I did this once and my ex girlfriend was a little upset but let it go, she appreciated how much I was into her but said try not to do this again. The problem I couldn't help myself and I did.
Again take this a learning lesson. You're new at this and you will make mistakes, and so will she. I hope you guys have a wonderful and prosperous marriage.
This is why your girlfriend dumped you.
You are clueless about women.
Women often do the stuff they do without knowing why they are doing it.
Men, usually know why.
Did you know that if a woman agrees to go out to dinner with you, you may not get sex, but you can almost always get her to make out with you. They love the attention and they love finding out if new guy is a good kisser.
I respect the OP for busting her and calling this dude.
Now, the dude knows he knows, and he's onto this guys move.
The OPS woman can through all the defensive snit fits she wants...and believe me she will try to anger, guilt and shame him into caving in.
She will spout to high heaven that what he did was worse than her lying by omission and having dinner with some guy she made out with in high school... OR if she caves (because she can't risk being humiliated by him canceling the wedding) she will always believe she was "right, secretly, silently, inside.
I feel for the OP.
But in the least he should postpone the wedding for a year. 1 year moratorium penalty flag.
Right before a wedding? A woman will lie cheat steal and do them all again 3 fold to avoid the embarrassment of a canceled wedding.
The healthy choices are:
1. Delay the wedding for 1 year.
2. Require her to go to relationship counseling. (Find a Gottman or Hendrix oriented or trained therapist).
3. Ironclad Pre-Nup, with Video Evidence of the agreement, and what she is signing.
However, you require all of this of her CALMLY.
No more Drama on your part.
People whispering. Cool, calm, collected, iron clad resolve and reserve.
Unless of course you want to where the skirt in the family for the duration of your first marriage (cos you will get married again after she divorces you).
Flagpole wrote:
mad and in need of advice wrote:Flagpole, thanks, but that's tough. I hear you, but I love her. I don't know what happened last night. A bad judgment call on her part, that's what I think.
Sorry to tell it like it is brother, but that's how I see it. I don't think you owe her an apology either; SHE owes you an apology. If a woman about to be married doesn't understand why it's inappropriate to go out for drinks and then dinner with a guy who took a 45-minute train to do so, then there's something wrong with her. Unless she comes to you and says, "I wasn't thinking about how this might look and how you might react to my actions, and I'm sorry and I won't do something like that again," then you need to end it with her. Love isn't enough for marriage. There must be trust and respect, and she didn't respect you and you can't trust her. She's a rotten apple brother. I wouldn't marry her if I were you.
Er, "WEAR," (it is late zzz).
Flagpole's advice is right on.
Me, I would not marry this woman this year.
She has thrown you an incredibly horribly disrespectful and destructive and shocking curve on the eve of the wedding.
Alarm bells, HELLO.
The Judge wrote:
Wake Up My Friend wrote:In a relationship such as you have with your fiance there are only two people responsible for it - you and your fiance. The other 6.4 billion people on this planet are irrelevant.
There is only one person responsible for the actions and words of your fiance - your fiance.
The fact that you lash out at some ex signifies nothing more than your own insecurity and cowardice. If there is something that should be addressed then it should be addressed with the appropriate party - your fiance.
This ^ is the answer.
I can agree with this too, but I think the OP also showed balls to call the guy up.
Listen, it was late at night, the OP was surprised with this new curve happening, and she was out past their routine tuck in time.
How many guys you know wouldn't have the balls to call the dude up and call him out.
Most, and almost all on this site, tbs.
Seenitbfore wrote:
Don't marry her. She's not ready!!! Take my warning. It will ruin and define your life!! Same scenario. It ruined my brother.
You did the right thing. Now finish it. They can both explain to the world why you called it off. You owe the world nothing. This is YOUR life.
CHURCH! And succinctly too! ;-)
madarin wrote:
There are two points that many posters are making that this guy needs to take into account:
1. Don't concentrate your concern, anger, revenge, whatever...at this douchebag. An earlier poster was right: some assholes are just going to continually try to bang women. Women who are happy, loyal, and MARRIAGE-WORTHY are disgusted by such advances, and would probably never even put themselves in a situation where such advances could be made.
2. You should NOT marry this woman. No way. Right now, if you break things off, it's going to be tough. If she cheats on you again after you are married and THEN try to break things off, you are in for a world of hurt that will make breaking it off with her now look like a walk in the park.
You do understand that the kind of women you mention in point 1., are like ten percent of the population.
The majority of the women will take the flirting as positive attention about their attractiveness and go with it. And a large subset will meet for drinks, coffee, slip in where things are happening on "girls night out," etc.
2: CHURCH2!
random a hole wrote:
Why do the people who agree with and quote the advice from Flagpole use the term "brother" which also seems to be a habit of Flagpole himself? I have seen 2 of these responses just a few posts above.
It's called "personal culture," or mannerisms. People often reflect others personal mannerisms back to them in order to show agreement, solidarity, or rapport.
Now, that really wasn't that hard was it?
carter wrote:
Assuming your original post conveys some sense of what actually happened (rather than your pissed off perspective of what happened), here's how it will go down for you:
1. Can't call off the marriage, it's too close, people already have tickets and other arrangements. Your balls aren't big enough for such drastic measures, and you think your fiancee and yourself are in love and can work things out. Remember, you're 33y.o. not 23. Your future wife shouldn't be out till 11pm with a former flame without a slew of apologies and phone calls.
2. You two will fight a lot about petty things around the house for a few years. This happens in all marriages, but your fights will eventually escalate to name calling, personal insults, and dredging up of past incidences and betrayals which is what happens in bad marriages. With luck you two will not have children.
3. Your marriage will dissolve when your wife begins to act funny, say peculiar things, and your friends begin to show outward dislike for her or make up excuses as to why they won't go out with you two or come over for dinner.
4. You will be pissed because of the 4-5 shitty years you wasted with someone you now hate, and should've known to rid yourself of long ago when all the red flags were visible. You'll be happy that at least you didn't have kids. If you were too dumb to not have kids then you will be plagued by this nemesis on a regular basis for approx. 18yrs, at your kid's wedding, and at/for every significant family event. I'm sure I'm missing a lot since this has never happened to me but has to a brother and a few friends. This template, I believe, is fairly universal.
Cheers!!
Carter Be Right, BROTHER!
What Would G. Rupp Do? wrote:
stuck with match.com wrote:Oh I see now, the anti Stuck Trolls are out tonight. Okay big shot, what sort of advice do you have for the OP. To dump his fiance just because Galen Rupp would do that? Thats smart, because the OP is clearly like Galen Rupp.
This is the problem with letsrun. Everybody here acts all macho, oh dump this girl the minute she isn't 100% perfect and go find yourself another girl. I feel like that is the usual advice on here. If the girl doesn't do everything that you expect her to do then she isn't right for you, and so on. You do realize what you are saying, right? You are clearly degrading women. You expect them to be 100%, because you as a guy are 100% worth it and never make a mistake.
LETS BE CLEAR HERE, WE ARE ALL HUMANS, WE ALL MAKE MISTAKES. In this situation all three people made a mistake. They were small mistakes and it would be easy to get past them all. You are saying to dump this girl because she made 1, YES JUST 1 MISTAKE. I believe in forgive, and forget. Now if this happens again then yes I would be suspicious, but the OP's fiance like all other women, are human. They will not be 100% perfect, no girl will be 100% perfect. Accept that because you if you don't you will live a lonely life because you will never find a girl.
The OP has clearly found true love, he is getting married to this girl. I have seen no prior reports of previous issues between them. Why do you feel its okay to come on here and essentially ruin what could be a great marriage? You think its justified, just because of one incident, IN WHICH NOTHING HAPPENED.
The OP's fiance probably didn't invite him because it would be awkward. You have two friends who are catching up and it would be him. The conversation would be about things that he wouldn't get because he did not go to high school with them. Why is it such a big deal that is 45 minutes, each way. Have you never traveled that far to see a friend? I know I have, many times. Yes even friends that were girls. Why didn't the Fiance tell the OP about what happened? Simple because the OP has proven to be the jealous type and she probably figured that it would do more harm than good in telling him.
So go on, keep telling guys to break up with girlfriends, fiance's and wives because the lady commits just one mistake. It's almost like you guys are trying to make up for something, something that you lack. Oh yes thats right you guys lack a meaningful relationship with an actual girl.
Actually, I'm happily married with three children ages 5, 3, and 1. Since my wife is still hot, going to keep knocking her up approximately every 2 years until the house runs out of rooms, and even then we might get another house. ;-)
Galen Rupp really should be the Letsrun role model, because even though he looks like a 14-15 year old boy, he always acted like a alpha-male rooster and it landed him a pretty gf soon to be wife.
My highschool XC coach told his own son, who was on my varsity team, his secrets to getting women (including the boy's mother, the homecoming queeen) was always to assert the dominance women crave, not asking a girl "Want to go out to the movies this weekend?" but rather "Come with me to the movies this weekend" as statement bordering on command.
Your talk of respecting her, jealousy, and how a woman will/should react to that. Hahaha. My experience with women, and that of the men I know who are successful with women, is the exact opposite. Any woman worth having likes a healthy degree of being made to feel like she belongs to you, needs it, and will cheat on any metrosexual Democrat who doesn't provide it.
You make a decent point about men assuming dominance.
But your mixing this up with your latently homosexual psycho babble about Rupp, and politics, metro-sexual or no, clearly defines you a s wingnut wackjob with a marble loose in your noggin.
0/10. can't believe you hooked so many..
Get Real Real wrote:
You make a decent point about men assuming dominance.
But your mixing this up with your latently homosexual psycho babble about Rupp, and politics, metro-sexual or no, clearly defines you a s wingnut wackjob with a marble loose in your noggin.
Considering the people who use terms like "wingnut wackjob" and "tea bagger," I take that as a compliment.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqXVo2OTrbkhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9pEPGc3oqMYou sound controlling and insecure. She was obviously doing something with the guy. You should have just talked to her and dumped her. Why bother snooping through the email and calling the guy? That's just stupid. It's the type of thing that jealous guys who kill their girlfriends or wives do. Maybe he called your fiancee because he was concerned for her safety.
calm the fuke down wrote:
You sound controlling and insecure. She was obviously doing something with the guy. You should have just talked to her and dumped her. Why bother snooping through the email and calling the guy? That's just stupid. It's the type of thing that jealous guys who kill their girlfriends or wives do. Maybe he called your fiancee because he was concerned for her safety.
He shouldn't have *called* the other guy. He should have visited the guy's house and complained to his wife, told her he was breaking off his engagement because her husband was probably boinking his woman. The other guy did him a favor by showing him the truth about his woman, he could have helped spread truth and justice by enlightening the wife of the other guy.
Visited the guy's house? Please. That's dumber than calling. There's no need to escalate things and make a whole bunch of drama. That's how people get into fights and get shot. Just dump and move on with life. Why should he care if this guy is cheating on his wife? People need to mind their own business, not get involved in other peoples' (especially strangers') marriages.
Get Real Real wrote:
[quote]madarin wrote:
There are two points that many posters are making that this guy needs to take into account:
1. Don't concentrate your concern, anger, revenge, whatever...at this douchebag. An earlier poster was right: some assholes are just going to continually try to bang women. Women who are happy, loyal, and MARRIAGE-WORTHY are disgusted by such advances, and would probably never even put themselves in a situation where such advances could be made.
2. You should NOT marry this woman. No way. Right now, if you break things off, it's going to be tough. If she cheats on you again after you are married and THEN try to break things off, you are in for a world of hurt that will make breaking it off with her now look like a walk in the park.
You do understand that the kind of women you mention in point 1., are like ten percent of the population.
You might be right. But this guy shouldn't marry any woman who isn't part of that 10%. Why should he even put himself through the misery of marrying one of the other 90% and getting burnt? His fiancee is NOT marriage material. No way.
kaitainen wrote:
the OP's actions here were completely out of bounds. looking at her email, calling this guy and yelling at him. it's unreal to me that anyone thinks such behavior is ok. it is controlling, it is an invasion of privacy, and it is completely out of proportion to anything that actually happened.
i've frequently had lunch or dinner or a couple of drinks, alone, with married female friends. there has never been anything remotely untoward about it. and if the husband of one of these woman called me and cussed me out, or started monitoring our email communication because of it, i'd be shocked, and i think his wife would be too. (there may be a slight difference in that all of my examples involve women i either dated or was good friends with at some point in my life).
in any event, good luck to the OP. it seems that you and your fiance are not on the same page and that you have serious trust issues at this stage of your relationship.
1) Agreed that this guy shouldn't have called that dude and yelled at him. He should have done that ONLY with his fiance.
2) You've had lunch and dinner with married female "friends". While depending on the circumstances that can be dicey (it's not just a blanket ok to do that), this guy that took a 45-minute train ride to see this woman was not really a "friend". He was a casual acquaintance at best. There's just no reason for him to want to spend so much time and energy to see his fiance for drinks and dinner...NONE. He was married to boot. Bad deal brother, and if you can't see that then you're just wrong.
3) Finally, concerning your own behavior, you don't find it odd that a former girlfriend of yours who is now married wants to have dinner alone with you? Sorry, but even the most secure man married to her ought to raise an eyebrow to that. Married women basically going out on dates with former boyfriends is a no-no brother. Want to rehash old times at a high school or college reunion while in open view of the spouse then fine...private dinners though...no way brother. You're really not right to be doing that.
I'm not sure what to say. It appears that there is an over whelming majority to break up with her or postpone the wedding. I still disagree with that as I feel it is drastic. However I want to see what happens within the next few days. How things go, I wouldn't make any drastic moves within the next few days. Just wait things out and see how things go. If she continues seeing dinner with this guy then yes end it, but if not and she seems sincere about not doing it again, then marry her.