NON-STEROID ALL-TIME WORLD LISTS

you are clueless

you have no concept of the term "greatness"

- kip is greatest 800 guy in history, even without the big gold - it is no surprise that others following him may not get within more than 1/2s of him even in next few years

- the 1500 times of the late-90s/early '00s were set by 3 of the greatest 1500 talents in history - hicham/bernie/morceli - each woud be in top 5 of most any afficionado's top 5 of alltime greatest 1500ers - it is no surprise the years following them guys with nowhere near their talent aren't getting within 3s of the wr

- 5k/10k - kennster & geb - the 2 greatest distance runners of alltime - same argument as above

learn historical perspective - when is another tiger or a phelps going to come around ???

So the greatest 800m, 1500m, 3000m 5000m and 10000m runners all happened to run in the same 5 year window when it just so happened that there was no way of detecting EPO!

What a coincidence!

With neither world records nor an Olympic title at any distance, I'm afraid Lagat would lag behind Coe, Elliott and Ovett in any un-biased expert's top 5 list of milers. Most would also probably put him behind Snell & Cram as well. I'd put him behind Walker also, as he was Olympic champion and Mile world record holder.

moron morceli ran 3'28 back in '92 & hicham/bernie went 3'27 in '04that's a 12y windowthey coudn't detect epo for 12y ???utter moron

With neither world records nor an Olympic title at any distance, I'm afraid Lagat would lag behind Coe, Elliott and Ovett in any un-biased expert's top 5 list of milers. Most would also probably put him behind Snell & Cram as well. I'd put him behind Walker also, as he was Olympic champion and Mile world record holder

& which of those guys ran 3'26 ???

the bernie who battled hicham to the line in athens wouda destroyed any other 1500er in history apart from ryun

who on your list wouda beaten bernie ???

Keep it coming.

This stuff is classic.

3.18 if El G doped? Hahaha.

My stab at the all-time clean women's 100m

10.90 and faster. Feel free to comment/edit!

I'm assuming Ottey was clean in 1996 and Marion was in 1997 but I could easily be wrong. I eliminated Altitude marks and the wind aided 1988 US Olympic Trials. I excluded Torri Edwards but I am really not sure.

10.64 +1.2 Carmelita Jeter 20.09.2009

10.73 +2.0 Christine Arron 19.08.1998

10.73 +0.1 Shelly-Ann Fraser 17.08.2009

10.74 +1.3 Merlene Ottey 07.09.1996

10.75 +0.4 Kerron Stewart 10.07.2009

10.76 +1.7 Evelyn Ashford 22.08.1984

10.76 +0.9 Marion Jones 22.08.1997

10.78 +0.8 Veronica Campbell-Brown 03.07.2010

10.79 -0.1 Inger Miller 22.08.1999

10.82 -1.0 Gail Devers 01.08.1992

10.82 +0.4 Gwen Torrence 03.09.1994

10.82 -0.7 Sherone Simpson 24.06.2006

10.83 -1.0 Juliet Cuthbert 01.08.1992

10.84 +1.3 Chioma Ajunwa 11.04.1992

10.84 +1.9 Chandra Sturrup 05.07.2005

10.84 +1.8 Kelly-Ann Baptiste 05.06.2010

10.85 +1.0 Muna Lee 28.06.2008

10.86 +1.2 Chryste Gaines 14.09.2003

10.88 +0.4 Lauryn Williams 19.08.2005

10.90 +1.4 Glory Alozie 05.06.1999

10.90 +1.8 Shalonda Solomon 05.06.2010

I wonder if Jeter was tested in October November or December 2008?

There are a number of athlete's left off your list for no reason other than their Nationality.

Also why leave off Flo-Jo? To me I'd be no more or less suspicious of Jeter's sudden progression.

Really a female sprinter would be crazy not to dope. Running 11.1 or 11.2 will get you nowhere. Get on the right program and you will run 10.8. You have more chance of getting hit by a bus than getting caught so why wouldn't you?

Nutella1 wrote:

What's the point of taking EPO if you live at altitude like Geb and the other Ethiopians/Kenyans?

So you can beat the other people also living at altitude?

'5000m - Since Geb's 12:39.36 in 98, only Bekele, Kipchoge, Shihine & Songok have run within 9 secs. Bekele apart, no one has broken 12:50 in the last 4 seasons (including this one).

10000m - Geb's 26:22 WR in 98: - Apart from Bekele, only 5 runners have run within 20 secs in the last 6 seasons(2005-2010): - Kiprop, Negera, Kogo, Tadese & Wanjiru.'

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I'm usually in agreement with you but differ on these distances. Here are the reasons

1) Both the 5 and 10 WR's were set (2004/5) when EPO test was available

2) The 10 is hardly ever run anymore

3) For the 5 the money for the Golden League was for being unbeaten during the season, as KB was clearly the best and also the best kicker, he seemed to just settle for winning

4) Look at where the failed tests come from, they tend to be from Spain/ Morocco and the middle distances rather than long distances. The athletes from these counties don't have the advantage of being born at altitude.

A doper can pass the test but if you get 10 one will fail and if you check the IAAF lists you can see a pattern of distances and countries were doping is more prevalent

so I believe in genetic freaks, and I also believe that WRs set in the past decade are innocent until proven guilty, and those in the 90s are guilty until proven innocent - this is an impossible standard, I know, but I think the whole 1990s should be thrown out. But I'm conflicted about Kipketer. He might be the real deal.

Usain Bolt and Kenenisa Bekele seem like once in a lifetime athletes. My gut says they are, and so their records are legit with me.

My list:

100: 9.58

200: 19.19.

400: no idea.

800: no idea.

1500: ~3:29.

3000: ~7:25

5000: 12:37

10000: 26:22.

With the 400, It might be anywhere from Johnson to Wariner. With the 800, the question is: were Kipketer, Cruz and Coe supernatural talents or cheaters? And the frustrating thing is, we'll almost certainly never know the answer.

There is far more evidence to suggest Bolt and Gay are clean, than to suggest they are dirty. You simply can't implicate someone based on great performances alone becasue in that case every WR holder would have to be implicated. Bolt is simply physically different from every sprinter before him, his physical differene is unique, which make him uniquely fast. This no difference than when Wilt Chamberlin came along, he was the first big man who was extremely agile. Also, Bolt was world class at age 16 and continued to improve. Bolt is unique, but it all makes sense.

In terms of Gay, he has made steady improvements over a 6 year period and the biggest performance improvements have come in the form of his technical proficiency. He is probably the most flawless sprinter since Carl Lewis. Also, having to take a piss test at competitions and a couple non scheduled piss tests is one thing, but to give up your blood during heavy training cycles is unheard of. Off season training is when most of the dopping occurs and except for Flix and Trotter, to the best of my knowlede no other sprinter in the world has every done this. Even if you think you are slick, if you are dirty, why take a risk that you don't have to take.

Other people: In terms of some of the 800/1500 ladies, even though many of Doina Melinte's Eastern European compatraits were dopping, there are a lot of people who are admadmant that she was clean and she is the only Eastern European women from that area who will actually have an open and frank discussion about her career. Also, the tortesterone based PED from 80s dramatcailly changed your physical apperance and Gallagher, Decker and Melinte are the few whose physical apperance never changed.

All reasonable explanations, I agree. I'm more suspicious of the performances from the mid 90's to the end of 2000, though I'm still not convinced the testing was that reliable in the early '00's. I also agree that there seems to be more suspicion over the middle distances.

Do you think that Ramzi only started using Cera (a new form of EPO) in 08, and that his double world victories in '05 and his 3:29. 1 in '06 were completely unaided?

I didn't at the time and with hindsight and the +ve in '08, I'm even more convinced. Of course we'll never know for sure as they didn't begin to hold samples until 08!

Interested to know what your slant on it is!?

When I mentioned Ramzi only starting using Cera in 08, of course it was relatively new. What I meant to ask was whether or not Ramzi was using earlier forms of EPO in the '05 -'07 period?

For the men: All running records except 3k maybe steeple and 400h are legit

Field events: Sotomayor (HJ) failed tests, all throws are doped

For the women: only 5k, steeple, marathon, 400h, hammer, and pole vault

Basically all the womens records from the 80s and 90s are gone

womens javelin is good too

she's the one i'm most suspicious about !

she was a bronze-level mid-60s thrower for years then added 5m in olympic year for gold & wr !!!

she is almost certainly a doper !

400: 59

800: 2:02

1600: 4:22

Those are my PR's, and I am the only person on the planet who I am absolutely confident did not use PED's.

I think EL G is clean

'Do you think that Ramzi only started using Cera (a new form of EPO) in 08, and that his double world victories in '05 and his 3:29. 1 in '06 were completely unaided?'

Nobody wins world champs and then thinks they need to get on the gear. Same for Marion Jones who someone above (DOB 6/7/10) reckons was clean in 97.

Once someone is done for doping all their previous records should be wiped. That is after thay are banged up for fraud.