Shalane's longest LR ever was 12mi

newname, I appreciate your sarcasm and skepticism, but I think you're misunderstanding the overall conclusions I've come to about the LONG RUN, which I repeat: are my personal conclusions and the conclusions that work for me.

Before I continue, I should note that there have been a handful of runner's who were successful using similar training methods (Van Aaken), however I should note that the LONG RUN was a part of their schedule.

A few examples would be:

Liane Winter of West Germany, who in the 1975 Boston Marathon set a women's world record in 2:42:25, prior to that in 1974 she set 2 German marathon records in Wolfsburg and Waldniel, and also in 1977 a 10k German record in Bruges (37:16).

Then there also was Christa Vahlensieck, who in May 1975 set a world record of 2:40:16, then in 1977 in the Berlin marathon set another world record of 2:34:48. From 1973 to 1989 she won a total of 21 marathons. Other notable accomplishments of Christa were:

-World record in the hour run: 16,872 feet, 24 May 1975 in Bochum

-World record in the 10,000-meter run: 34:01,4 min. 20 August 1975 in Wolfsburg

-World record in the 20,000-meter run: 1:10:50,2 h, 25 October 1975 in Essen

-Four world records in the 25-kilometer road race: 1:31:52, 23 March 1975 in Düren; 1:31:01, 13 September 1975 in Rheydt; 2nd In May 1976 Ameln, 1:28:33, 22 November 1978 in Griesheim

-German record in the 100-km race: 7:50:37, 4th September 1976 in Unna

11 times the German champion of the Federal Republic:

-Marathon in 1975, 1976, 1977, 1978 and 1980

in the 25-kilometer road race in 1977, 1978, 1979 and 1980

in the 15-kilometer road 1988

Then there was Harald Norpoth, some of his accomplishments include:

-1500 m: 3:41,2 min, 20 September 1962 in Warsaw, German record

-5000 m: 13:48,4 min on 4 July 1964 in Berlin, German record

-3000 m: 7:55,2 min on 5 July 1965 in Karlsruhe, German record

-5000 m: 13:42.8 min, 7 July 1965 in Berlin, German record

-5000 m: 13:24,8 min on 7 June 1966 in Cologne, European Record

-2000 m: 4:57,8 min on 10 September 1966 in Hagen, world record

-3000 m: 7:45,2 min, 6 June 1967 in Munster, European Record

-4x880 Yards: 7:14,6 min, 13 June 1968 in Fulda (Bodo Tümmler, Walter Adams, Harald Norpoth, Franz-Josef Kemper), World Record

-5000 m: 13:20,6 min, 12 July 1972 in Munich, German record

Of course there were more who were trained in a similar fashion by Van Aaken but were age group runners; successful age group runners.

Prior to 2010 I was logging approximately 170-210 kilometers per week including a long run bi-weekly. So typically one week I'd do 10,5,5,10, 6 days a week plus a 30k long run, then the next week I would do the same 10,5,5,10, 7 days a week.

Where I differ is that in my experience I found that the long run for me when I was doing it bi-weekly seemed of little value in the sense of physical gains, again I'm not completely convinced that it is of no value, after all it still remains in my schedule, however my goal in the long run is not the same goal that is typical of the traditional LONG RUN. My goal in the long run is that of pace control, so what I mean by that is that during a typical day of training my training paces will be between 6:00 to 7:15 depending on the workout I have set up as well as the distance (and obviously much faster for the accelerations I have built into my mid-day 5k workouts), so I don't spend a huge amount of time at one given pace, what the long run allows me to do is to run at a predetermined pace for a continuous period of time. So when I say pace control that is what I mean, setting a continuous pace for a longer distance, I don't mean a long distance time trial where I'm running race pace to see what I'm capable of in a marathon.

Now where I want to be clear is that I think you're right in saying that those who maintain a larger volume of running 100+ mi are going to be the most successful that I will not argue with, but were I will argue is that I don't think everything has to be compressed into 1 or 2 longer runs per day in order to be successful I just gave you a handful of people who used a similar method and were successful. Sure I will give you the fact that those are old records, but I might add that the reason nobody runs 5 runs a day has more to to with the tradition of training and time constraints and responsibilities then anything else as dividing your days to allow 5 runs a day is time consuming and perhaps pointless for most who already are running successfully, so from that point of view I can understand why these training methods I use seem quite the exception rather then the norm. I would also add that dividing my days into multiple runs allows me to maintain a higher average weekly millage, perhaps you might be inclined to think that somehow 5 shorter runs is easier to run then 2 runs of the same distance, there I'd be careful in the conclusions you draw.

At this point obviously you are faster then me and I can't argue with the methods you've used to reach that point, however, I've only been running for 1 year and 11 months and don't have a track or XC background. So as far as the conclusions that can be drawn from my training methods and yours including my ideas on the LONG RUN, none can be made assuming you've been running for many more years then I have.

Respectfully,

E**2

malmo wrote:I used to think that the board was dominated by high school kids, then it suddenly dawned on me that the bell curve of intelligence has two wings. We see a lot of posts coming from the left slope of that curve here. That neither bad nor good, it just is. A certain percentage just isn't going to get it. Ever.

In the immortal words of my late father, "Son, you can fix ignorance through education but there ain't no cure for stupid."

You seem to be rushing to a judgement here, apparently to make some kind of pronouncement on malmo's agenda, (if he even has an agenda, which I doubt). My read on what he is saying here re: long runs is that total volume is more important than the length of any one run within that volume. The thread started with the premise that 12 mi. is too short a "long run" for a 10k runner, and malmo presents evidence that indeed it is plenty, and has been for years for a number of elite runners. The fact that he ran 20 milers routinely then gets lost in the fact that a 20 miler was run as just another workout amidst a 120 or 140 mile week. And that the goal of his training was not to run 20 milers.

I don't see any agenda from malmo other than presenting the facts.

MarathonMind wrote:

You seem to be rushing to a judgement here, apparently to make some kind of pronouncement on malmo's agenda, (if he even has an agenda, which I doubt). My read on what he is saying here re: long runs is that total volume is more important than the length of any one run within that volume. The thread started with the premise that 12 mi. is too short a "long run" for a 10k runner, and malmo presents evidence that indeed it is plenty, and has been for years for a number of elite runners. The fact that he ran 20 milers routinely then gets lost in the fact that a 20 miler was run as just another workout amidst a 120 or 140 mile week. And that the goal of his training was not to run 20 milers.

I don't see any agenda from malmo other than presenting the facts.

There, was that so hard?

There's more than one way to skin a cat, and a lot of great distance runners have skinned it without 20-milers.

And a lot have skinned it just as well with 20-milers. Or 30-milers

The 20-miler is not some magical, mystical workout that imparts wisdom and greatness that only it can imbue.

I can't understand why everyone is believing Shalane here. She's doing the whole, "Look how great I am and I don't even do [insert standard training idea here]" routine. She's lying. Every 29 year old distance runner who's been training at a high level since high school has gone out on at least one 12+ run. Maybe she doesn't incorporate long runs into her training, but she's run more than 12 miles at once.

I've been following this thread since someone mentioned the link, I can't understand why everybody is so hostile w/ one another on here.

In my experiences with runners [some in the 2:30 marathon range and some in the 3:00+ range, I've never had the opportunity to chat w/ the exception of 1 guy who trained w/ 2 Olympic athletes from the 80's, w/ an elite athlete on a 1st person basis] every runner has a "story" to tell about how they trained, how they did this and did that, I've never met 2 runners w/ the same training schedule or in the same training group that trained the same way and achieved the same results.

In my short time of running I've read many books that say one way is better then the other, some that stress long runs of 18+ miles and some that stress medium long runs of 13+ miiles, yet when I look at the schedules of successful athletes they all vary greatly (both from athlete to athlete and nation to nation), the only variables that seem to remain consistent is a) high consistent millage and b) a ratio of 80-90% endurance to 10-20% quality type work. All the other variables seem to differ from athlete to athlete, perhaps this is called "adaptive training" or at least that's what Brad Hudson calls it, where the training is geared toward the needs of the individual athlete.

For instance under Coach Kosgei who coached at the Kenyan National Training Camp for the World XC Championships ('85-'95) that the standard schedule included 3 runs per day:

6:00am - 10k (up to 22k for a few elites)

10:00am - when not track work, the longest run was a progression style 20-25k

4:00pm - 12 to 16k

25k (~15.5) is not that much further then 12mi in the case of Shalane, though the above schedule is the mens schedule, the women where doing slightly less (-2 to -4 kilometers)

In Shalane's case I'd have a tendency to agree with "ag345hasd5008" she probably has run further then 12 miles at some point in her running career, how often has she gone over 12 miles? Who knows, enough times to make a difference in overall performance, again who knows... and then yet, if she did do over 12 miles in her training cycle how long does that training effect stay w/ you? If you run a 13 mile "long run" 3 months prior to a big race and everything leading to it is under it, does that 13 mile training run still have a contributing effect 3 months later? Perhaps her longest run was 12 miles, but a lot of other runs were 10 or 11 miles, does 1 mile make a world of difference?, maybe it does maybe it doesn't, I'm not experienced enough to know or fast enough to draw conclusions on a performance that is a lot of times determined by seconds whether you place 1st, 2nd or 3rd.

These are all questions I was wondering while I was reading this thread can anybody give any reasonable speculation?

Respectfully,

E**2

Geb does three hour runs weekly.

easy 12 milers for Shalane figure to take less than 1:20, maybe 1:15, and hard ones in maybe 1:07. You supposedly get radically increased mitochondrial production on runs over 1:30. seems foolish to miss out on that.

E**2,

I am well aware of EVA and his disciples, especially Harald Norpoth. I doubt that they trained 5 runs per day, but if they DID, good for them.

I looked up Norpoth's training and all I could find was ONCE-a-day training. It also was exceptionally low-mileage. HE was a great runner and one of the best of his era. He also had a very long career. But it does not look like he trained like you are doing.

My point was not to mock you, just to explain that you can try to think of reasons that running 5-times-a-day is best (for you or anyone else), but when the rest of the world (throughout history) runs (mostly) twice-a-day, you shoudl realize that you have not re-invented a better wheel.

If you have time to run 4-5 separate runs per day, then knock yourself out. It isn't going to make you the best you can be, and you aren't going to have any time for anything else in life.

There was a chapter in "THe van Aaken Method" in which he suggested that runners of the future might run 4-5 times a day and the schedule given was all runs of 5-10k. And someone on this board who actually trained with EvA once wrote about a week where they would run for seven hours in a day alternating a running houir with a resting hour. That's likely where the idea is coming from here.

But when you see samples of the way van Aaaken's athletes trained you see one sessions a day in cases like Norpoth and Liane Winter and twice in most other cases.