Since I’m sure there are lot of NY state HS Xc fans on here, what happened to the FM girls and Bill Aris? I mean they won 11 of 12 national titles. That’s amazing.
Is Bill Aris still coaching? Why aren’t they dominant like they once were?
Is the super intense culture of “We are one of the best in the country or bust” motto no longer a thing that works or is allowed?
There's really nothing to report on. I ran HS and D1 in NY, was teammates with several FM (and Saratoga) kids and none of them had anything good to say about him. He ran the kids into the ground for his own ego, the kids were shot by the time they got to college, and other big schools around the country caught up to and surpassed what FM was doing for training.
Then all of the reputation hits started coming in, I know a few now-HS coaches who said through the grapevine that parents basically don't want their kids running for him. And now he just cares about his grandson on the team. They're a dead program.
On the boys side, FM used to be the only dominant program (year-in and year-out) in NY. Because they have completely fallen off the map, NY boys teams finished last at NXN the last few years. Doesn’t seem like any other NY boys team is raising the bar, and now people are begging to remove the NY NXR or combine it with the NE to give justice to the nationally ranked Southwest teams that don’t make NXN
3. Would be curious to hear from one person in particular; Nicole Blood. Nicole was their star and in her junior year, she quit the team. I can't find links now but it's the closest we got to hearing about some real abusive stories that happened in that tent. I recall Blood describing a "run to tolerance" policy--indicating she was injured but they wanted her to run through it anyways and she needed a break, hence leading to the departure. There were other stories too. While training on her own and still a high school girl, she heard Kranick mutter "trash running by" , and she said in an interview that the other girls on the team weren't allowed to speak to her after she quit. That's a huge overreach from a coach. Isolating a high school student for the crime of quitting the team is outrageous.
But then Nicole had a total about face. I guess they made up and now she too will rave about them. It's her experience, not any of ours, I'd just be curious to see how she squares everything.
I’m just curious how USATF would have any authority to ban them . They were high school coaches not youth program coaches .
They were both. They also had a USATF member club.
That’s actually a key element of some of the allegations I have seen. High schools and state associations have limits as to how much contact coaches can have with athletes, the Kranicks used the track club to skirt those rules and pressure the kids to train 365 days a year.
Regardless, I don't want to legislate what happened 35 years ago. Let's look at eveything that has happened since 2020 and judge them on that. They won a natty in 2022. Have they evolved? Are they still 'abusive'?
We can't judge them in the year 2025 for actions they did in 1998 based on today's standards. I mean gay marriage was illegal until 10 years ago. Society evolves hopefully for the better.
I just find it wild that USATF feels like they have the moral authority to end people's careers with zero explanation - meanwhile their CEO is flying in private planes, taking home millions in some years while the revenue is declining. I'm much more outraged by that.
Tell us what they did, issue a report or don't ban them for life.
USATF Safe Sport started in 2014. The US Center for SafeSport opened in 2017. Congress updated the Sports Act in 2017 and it went into effect in 2018, making this stuff federal law.
And apparently not once in the past 11 years have you bothered to do a shred of research on the topic.
You have my number, you can call me if you need me to walk you through how Safe Sport works. It’s not something USATF pulled out of their asses in order to go after “tough” coaches.
It is far from a perfect system and USATF has been far from perfect in how they have handled every case, but as a sport we are moving in a better direction overall.
It does feel uncomfortable timing wise. It would have been better to act while he was alive and able to respond, or much earlier when concerns were already known. Waiting creates more questions than clarity and it does not really protect athletes any better after the fact.
Regardless, I don't want to legislate what happened 35 years ago. Let's look at eveything that has happened since 2020 and judge them on that. They won a natty in 2022. Have they evolved? Are they still 'abusive'?
We can't judge them in the year 2025 for actions they did in 1998 based on today's standards. I mean gay marriage was illegal until 10 years ago. Society evolves hopefully for the better.
I just find it wild that USATF feels like they have the moral authority to end people's careers with zero explanation - meanwhile their CEO is flying in private planes, taking home millions in some years while the revenue is declining. I'm much more outraged by that.
Tell us what they did, issue a report or don't ban them for life.
USATF Safe Sport started in 2014. The US Center for SafeSport opened in 2017. Congress updated the Sports Act in 2017 and it went into effect in 2018, making this stuff federal law.
And apparently not once in the past 11 years have you bothered to do a shred of research on the topic.
You have my number, you can call me if you need me to walk you through how Safe Sport works. It’s not something USATF pulled out of their asses in order to go after “tough” coaches.
It is far from a perfect system and USATF has been far from perfect in how they have handled every case, but as a sport we are moving in a better direction overall.
Dayymmm! Rojo gets a whooping. I don't think roping a kid up to a truck should be considered appropriate training in any era.
3. Would be curious to hear from one person in particular; Nicole Blood. Nicole was their star and in her junior year, she quit the team. I can't find links now but it's the closest we got to hearing about some real abusive stories that happened in that tent. I recall Blood describing a "run to tolerance" policy--indicating she was injured but they wanted her to run through it anyways and she needed a break, hence leading to the departure. There were other stories too. While training on her own and still a high school girl, she heard Kranick mutter "trash running by" , and she said in an interview that the other girls on the team weren't allowed to speak to her after she quit. That's a huge overreach from a coach. Isolating a high school student for the crime of quitting the team is outrageous.
But then Nicole had a total about face. I guess they made up and now she too will rave about them. It's her experience, not any of ours, I'd just be curious to see how she squares everything.
Here is a link to what she wrote at the time (November 2005) in Track and Field News:
Your memory is good. She had an ITB injury and she did not like their "run to tolerance" policy. It also describes what you recalled, how the Saratoga team members were not allowed to talk to her.
P.S. Nicole Blood's November 2005 article describes how she and another former Saratoga team member (Caitlin Lane) ran in the "Fast Lane" track club, coached by Caitlin Lane's father. There is a photo of them in a race in Fast Lane jerseys as well. So perhaps part of the reason Art Kranick had that policy of team members not talking to them was because he feared other team members might quit Saratoga and switch to Fast Lane. I agree it was a dumb choice, though. I can imagine that eventually he realized this at some point and apologized, so she felt positively later about their earlier work together.
The Kranicks had a rule that no member of the Saratoga team could speak to any athlete on an other team so this would have been consistent with their thinking.
Regarding the 2004 Dream Team Caitlin Lane’s father had been coaching at a small high school near Saratoga named Argyle, with no athletic tradition, that had just won the small school state cross country championship with junior high kids. The two groups decided to join forces and Caitlin Lane, her sister , and Hannah Davidson transferred from Argyle to Saratoga . The team swept the national championship but Lane and the Kranicks started arguing , Nicole Blood’s mom got into it and the Lanes transferred to Greenwich High where their dad started coaching and Blood moved to California.
3. Would be curious to hear from one person in particular; Nicole Blood. Nicole was their star and in her junior year, she quit the team. I can't find links now but it's the closest we got to hearing about some real abusive stories that happened in that tent. I recall Blood describing a "run to tolerance" policy--indicating she was injured but they wanted her to run through it anyways and she needed a break, hence leading to the departure. There were other stories too. While training on her own and still a high school girl, she heard Kranick mutter "trash running by" , and she said in an interview that the other girls on the team weren't allowed to speak to her after she quit. That's a huge overreach from a coach. Isolating a high school student for the crime of quitting the team is outrageous.
But then Nicole had a total about face. I guess they made up and now she too will rave about them. It's her experience, not any of ours, I'd just be curious to see how she squares everything.
Here is a link to what she wrote at the time (November 2005) in Track and Field News:
Your memory is good. She had an ITB injury and she did not like their "run to tolerance" policy. It also describes what you recalled, how the Saratoga team members were not allowed to talk to her.
nice!!
And for people posting comments she made about them afterwards, yes I am aware that she raves about them now, and wrote as much in my first comment. I was talking specifically about stuff she said about them while in high school.
I want to be clear that Nicole is welcome to whatever opinion she has about them and these are her experiences, but the stuff she describes as a high schooler is objectively concerning. Regardless of what she feels now, if my child was on the team and told to run to tolerance through an IT band injury, I would sound an alarm. And as a coach you just aren't allowed to tell kids they can't talk to another student at the school. It's a big deal to quit the team especially if you're a star runner.
Whether it's the Aris' or the Kranicks, at the high school level, results don't always tell the whole story.
When blood left we all locally thought it was gonna shatter their shield because everyone knew that they were too hard on the girls team and outside of Nolan Tully pretty much ignored the boys. It was obvious they optimized destroying young women who were peaking in high school to fluff their egos. Boys don’t develop the same way so they couldn’t exploit them as much.
P.S. Nicole Blood's November 2005 article describes how she and another former Saratoga team member (Caitlin Lane) ran in the "Fast Lane" track club, coached by Caitlin Lane's father. There is a photo of them in a race in Fast Lane jerseys as well. So perhaps part of the reason Art Kranick had that policy of team members not talking to them was because he feared other team members might quit Saratoga and switch to Fast Lane. I agree it was a dumb choice, though. I can imagine that eventually he realized this at some point and apologized, so she felt positively later about their earlier work together.
Blood played her cards right. They know to get out of an unhealthy situation. Props to that courage as I didn't know this story. Ended up twice Top 10 at NCAA XC for Oregon. Damn impressive.
This article is truly impressive! The writing is clear, insightful, and easy to follow. I really appreciate the way the author explains complex ideas in a simple and engaging manner.
Well looks like these methods work... they are used in other sport, or are common practices in other countries. Thus why they are having more success. Ideally they would be banned internationally, just like doping. But too impossible to control
sounds like the kranicks were doing things that were well outside social norms, and ignored admin warnings even 30 to 40 years ago. but what have they done in say the past 10 years? overtraining is a reality in our sport. someone could be "overtraining" on 20 miles per week.
there are very damning points made about the kranicks in that article, but there is also stuff that's clearly written by people completely unaware of the realities of competitive sport
Didn’t they win 3 national titles in the last 10 years?
Well looks like these methods work... they are used in other sport, or are common practices in other countries. Thus why they are having more success. Ideally they would be banned internationally, just like doping. But too impossible to control
Good talent pool. Saratoga Springs HS is a very desirable school in that area. Saratoga State Park is a nice six mile loop which is great for long runs.
Let’s not pretend distance running training is rocket science. Mileage plus a couple generic sessions a week and a long run is going to produce results among talented kids.
This post was edited 2 minutes after it was posted.
