I think Hoey can close last lap at that pace with a carefully paced 50.5/1:16.0 1:42.2 WR
So a former college mediocrity is now being touted as being better than one of the greatest ever in the sport. The blindness of this place is boggling.
It's been stated several times above, but to reiterate:
1. Rarely run event. Maybe every other world 800m finalist, plus Rai Benjamin, could do a similar time
2. This indoor track is as fast as outdoors, not like the old 11-lap plywood tracks.
3. Bicarb and super spikes.
4. Rudisha did not have bicarb. It seems to make a big difference. Hoey is probably a good responder, getting a big boost from it, buffering the enormous lactic acid at that speed from his size and wide arm swing, making him physiologically more efficient than he looks biomechanically.
Given the context, this performance is not surprising or otherworldly or too good to be true. It's a valid question as to whether he'll figure out how to peak and run tactically smart in the biggest races. I think he probably will.
Sprintcels like Benjamin could not come close to Handsome Hoey in this race. Benjamin's legs would turn to pudding shortly after 500, and he'd struggle to break 1:50 in the 800. The fact of the matter is that HH is very good and this is a strong WR.
I figure he's good for the indoor 800 and 1k records this year; the outdoor 600m record, which he would have been faster than by a few tenths if not for the mixup when his brother was dropping out; and should give a run at 800 and 1k outdoors as well. I'm not sure that he will uncork a 3:27 1500 because he has most likely gone all in on speed. But he'll have a shot at multiple records as long as he stays healthy, which I do not believe will go through outdoors and probably not throughout indoors. You simply cannot run 47.6 (enroute) indoors and be unable to go low 46 at least for 400m outdoors because you are losing a lot of power from the tight turns at that pace, banking or no banking. I think he is in 45.7-45.8 shape outdoors but no matter. This is great shape for July. But it's December so it's going to be very, very tough to make it even to the outdoor season.
This is just straight up wrong. 45.7 and 47.6 are ENTIRELY different. 47.6 is more likely than not a couple tenths of a second off of his open PB that his is able to maintain due to endurance training. That’s not how it works.
You don't seem capable of recognize that there is a very significant difference between 47.6 indoors in a 600m and 47.6 outdoors in a 400m race.
Here are the top all-time indoor 600m runs prior to this race:
1 1:13.77 Donavan Brazier USA 15.04.97 1 New York City 24.02.2019
2 1:13.97 Donavan Brazier USA 15.04.97 1 Spokane 11.02.2022
3 1:14.03A Brandon Miller USA 30.01.02 1 Albuquerque 09.02.2024
4 1:14.04 Will Sumner USA 22.10.03 1 New York City 08.02.2025
5 1:14.17 Isaiah Jewett USA 06.02.97 2 New York City 08.02.2025
6 1:14.37 Brandon Miller USA 30.01.02 3 New York City 08.02.2025
Hoey broke the record of a low 1:42 guy/world champ by nearly a second.
Outdoors, here are the top 600m guys:
1 1:12.81 Johnny Gray USA 19.06.60 1 Santa Monica 24.05.1986
2 1:13.10 David Rudisha KEN 17.12.88 1 Birmingham 05.06.2016
3 1:13.21 Pierre-Ambroise Bosse FRA 11.05.92 2 Birmingham 05.06.2016
Rudisha is the only guy to ever break 1:41. Bosse ran 1:42 and was world champ. Gray ran 1:42.
Here are the all-time best indoor 400m times on 200m tracks:
1 44.49 Christopher Morales Williams CAN 05.08.04 1r2 Lubbock 24.02.2024
2 44.52 Michael Norman USA 03.12.97 1r2 College Station 10.03.2018
3 44.57 Kerron Clement USA 31.10.85 1r2 Fayetteville 12.03.2005
4 44.62 Randolph Ross USA 01.01.01 1r2 Birmingham AL 12.03.2022
5 44.63 Michael Johnson USA 13.09.67 1 Atlanta 04.03.1995
6 44.66 Michael Johnson USA 13.09.67 1 Atlanta 02.03.1996
Quite a few of these guys (Randolph Ross (43.85), Michael Norman (43.45), Michael Johnson (43.18 1996)) ran 43 outdoors. Morales Williams has run 44.05 outdoors thus far. So, indoor to outdoor 400m usually gives you a 1 second drop. That takes 47.6 to 46.6. Now ask yourself how close to your 400m pr you can run and hold on to 600m. I'd be shocked if you are within a second of your 400m pr enroute to 600m. Rudisha had a 400m pr of 45.50 and usually ran those races four to five months before he was in pr 800m shape, so it is a conservative measure. When he ran 600m in 1:13.10, #2 outdoor all-time, he split 23.3, 47.17 (23.9), 25.9. Hoey split 23.9,47.6(23.7),25.2. Rudisha was 1.7s slower than his 400m pr through 400m of his pr 600m. That was outdoors. Taking that as a guide alone, Hoey would be at 47.6-1.7=45.9 for 400m indoors. I'm not going to take another second off for him and put him at 44.9 outdoors, but I would say that Hoey was not quite as flat out as Rudisha at that point because he closed 0.7s faster than Rudisha (25.2 to 25.9). Hoey is in shape to run 45.5-45.9 or faster outdoors right now.
It's not drugs! It's called QUADRUPLE threshold workouts. He's taking the benefits of recent double threshold training, and DOUBLING it! Again, it's not drugs!
I think Hoey can close last lap at that pace with a carefully paced 50.5/1:16.0 1:42.2 WR
So a former college mediocrity is now being touted as being better than one of the greatest ever in the sport. The blindness of this place is boggling.
He was not a mediocrity. You, on the other hand, are the definition of mediocrity.
I think Hoey can close last lap at that pace with a carefully paced 50.5/1:16.0 1:42.2 WR
So a former college mediocrity is now being touted as being better than one of the greatest ever in the sport. The blindness of this place is boggling.
The ignorance of this fraud is mind boggling. Calling Hoey a “college mediocrity”. To defend himself he’ll fall into his usual pilpul, then “… I know you are but what am I,” name calling.
This is just straight up wrong. 45.7 and 47.6 are ENTIRELY different. 47.6 is more likely than not a couple tenths of a second off of his open PB that his is able to maintain due to endurance training. That’s not how it works.
You don't seem capable of recognize that there is a very significant difference between 47.6 indoors in a 600m and 47.6 outdoors in a 400m race.
Here are the top all-time indoor 600m runs prior to this race:
1 1:13.77 Donavan Brazier USA 15.04.97 1 New York City 24.02.2019
2 1:13.97 Donavan Brazier USA 15.04.97 1 Spokane 11.02.2022
3 1:14.03A Brandon Miller USA 30.01.02 1 Albuquerque 09.02.2024
4 1:14.04 Will Sumner USA 22.10.03 1 New York City 08.02.2025
5 1:14.17 Isaiah Jewett USA 06.02.97 2 New York City 08.02.2025
6 1:14.37 Brandon Miller USA 30.01.02 3 New York City 08.02.2025
Hoey broke the record of a low 1:42 guy/world champ by nearly a second.
Outdoors, here are the top 600m guys:
1 1:12.81 Johnny Gray USA 19.06.60 1 Santa Monica 24.05.1986
2 1:13.10 David Rudisha KEN 17.12.88 1 Birmingham 05.06.2016
3 1:13.21 Pierre-Ambroise Bosse FRA 11.05.92 2 Birmingham 05.06.2016
Rudisha is the only guy to ever break 1:41. Bosse ran 1:42 and was world champ. Gray ran 1:42.
Here are the all-time best indoor 400m times on 200m tracks:
1 44.49 Christopher Morales Williams CAN 05.08.04 1r2 Lubbock 24.02.2024
2 44.52 Michael Norman USA 03.12.97 1r2 College Station 10.03.2018
3 44.57 Kerron Clement USA 31.10.85 1r2 Fayetteville 12.03.2005
4 44.62 Randolph Ross USA 01.01.01 1r2 Birmingham AL 12.03.2022
5 44.63 Michael Johnson USA 13.09.67 1 Atlanta 04.03.1995
6 44.66 Michael Johnson USA 13.09.67 1 Atlanta 02.03.1996
Quite a few of these guys (Randolph Ross (43.85), Michael Norman (43.45), Michael Johnson (43.18 1996)) ran 43 outdoors. Morales Williams has run 44.05 outdoors thus far. So, indoor to outdoor 400m usually gives you a 1 second drop. That takes 47.6 to 46.6. Now ask yourself how close to your 400m pr you can run and hold on to 600m. I'd be shocked if you are within a second of your 400m pr enroute to 600m. Rudisha had a 400m pr of 45.50 and usually ran those races four to five months before he was in pr 800m shape, so it is a conservative measure. When he ran 600m in 1:13.10, #2 outdoor all-time, he split 23.3, 47.17 (23.9), 25.9. Hoey split 23.9,47.6(23.7),25.2. Rudisha was 1.7s slower than his 400m pr through 400m of his pr 600m. That was outdoors. Taking that as a guide alone, Hoey would be at 47.6-1.7=45.9 for 400m indoors. I'm not going to take another second off for him and put him at 44.9 outdoors, but I would say that Hoey was not quite as flat out as Rudisha at that point because he closed 0.7s faster than Rudisha (25.2 to 25.9). Hoey is in shape to run 45.5-45.9 or faster outdoors right now.
Dude. Josh Hoey is NOT running any faster than Seb Coe did over 400m, like I've already stated. He is NOT A SPRINTER!! And neither was Coe.
Coe ran 46.8, 1:41.7, and 3:29. Hoey thus far has run 1:42.0 and 3:29.
I'll give Hoey a 45 high/46 low split in a 4x4 relay tops. But in the open, no way. Just because they run a certain time indoors does not mean they're running a whole second faster outdoors 😭
You are also comparing athletes who specialize in COMPLETELY different events to Hoey. Norman, Ross, Johnson, CMW, etc. All pure 200/400 specialists who would never be competitive over 600m or 800m. They are simply just too fast. They are sprinters. Not middle distance runners.
I don't think you understand the sheer amount of fast twitch muscle fiber needed to run that fast over open 400m. You would need, minimum, 21 low 200M speed and roughly 10.6 100M speed. Hoey is not running anywhere close to that.
Hoey is not like Sumner, or Juantorena, or Jewett. He is not running 45 in the open or splitting 44 in a relay. He is more likely to run 3:27 than he is to run 45 in the 400m.
It's been stated several times above, but to reiterate:
1. Rarely run event. Maybe every other world 800m finalist, plus Rai Benjamin, could do a similar time
2. This indoor track is as fast as outdoors, not like the old 11-lap plywood tracks.
3. Bicarb and super spikes.
4. Rudisha did not have bicarb. It seems to make a big difference. Hoey is probably a good responder, getting a big boost from it, buffering the enormous lactic acid at that speed from his size and wide arm swing, making him physiologically more efficient than he looks biomechanically.
Given the context, this performance is not surprising or otherworldly or too good to be true. It's a valid question as to whether he'll figure out how to peak and run tactically smart in the biggest races. I think he probably will.
The fantasies about this sport continue. The 2k is hardly run either but no one argued that that record is soft. And baking soda has been around for decades. If it could do a better job than EPO it would have long ago been banned. But athletes have moved on to far better stuff. Former mediocrities running wrs show that.
You don't seem capable of recognize that there is a very significant difference between 47.6 indoors in a 600m and 47.6 outdoors in a 400m race.
Here are the top all-time indoor 600m runs prior to this race:
1 1:13.77 Donavan Brazier USA 15.04.97 1 New York City 24.02.2019
2 1:13.97 Donavan Brazier USA 15.04.97 1 Spokane 11.02.2022
3 1:14.03A Brandon Miller USA 30.01.02 1 Albuquerque 09.02.2024
4 1:14.04 Will Sumner USA 22.10.03 1 New York City 08.02.2025
5 1:14.17 Isaiah Jewett USA 06.02.97 2 New York City 08.02.2025
6 1:14.37 Brandon Miller USA 30.01.02 3 New York City 08.02.2025
Hoey broke the record of a low 1:42 guy/world champ by nearly a second.
Outdoors, here are the top 600m guys:
1 1:12.81 Johnny Gray USA 19.06.60 1 Santa Monica 24.05.1986
2 1:13.10 David Rudisha KEN 17.12.88 1 Birmingham 05.06.2016
3 1:13.21 Pierre-Ambroise Bosse FRA 11.05.92 2 Birmingham 05.06.2016
Rudisha is the only guy to ever break 1:41. Bosse ran 1:42 and was world champ. Gray ran 1:42.
Here are the all-time best indoor 400m times on 200m tracks:
1 44.49 Christopher Morales Williams CAN 05.08.04 1r2 Lubbock 24.02.2024
2 44.52 Michael Norman USA 03.12.97 1r2 College Station 10.03.2018
3 44.57 Kerron Clement USA 31.10.85 1r2 Fayetteville 12.03.2005
4 44.62 Randolph Ross USA 01.01.01 1r2 Birmingham AL 12.03.2022
5 44.63 Michael Johnson USA 13.09.67 1 Atlanta 04.03.1995
6 44.66 Michael Johnson USA 13.09.67 1 Atlanta 02.03.1996
Quite a few of these guys (Randolph Ross (43.85), Michael Norman (43.45), Michael Johnson (43.18 1996)) ran 43 outdoors. Morales Williams has run 44.05 outdoors thus far. So, indoor to outdoor 400m usually gives you a 1 second drop. That takes 47.6 to 46.6. Now ask yourself how close to your 400m pr you can run and hold on to 600m. I'd be shocked if you are within a second of your 400m pr enroute to 600m. Rudisha had a 400m pr of 45.50 and usually ran those races four to five months before he was in pr 800m shape, so it is a conservative measure. When he ran 600m in 1:13.10, #2 outdoor all-time, he split 23.3, 47.17 (23.9), 25.9. Hoey split 23.9,47.6(23.7),25.2. Rudisha was 1.7s slower than his 400m pr through 400m of his pr 600m. That was outdoors. Taking that as a guide alone, Hoey would be at 47.6-1.7=45.9 for 400m indoors. I'm not going to take another second off for him and put him at 44.9 outdoors, but I would say that Hoey was not quite as flat out as Rudisha at that point because he closed 0.7s faster than Rudisha (25.2 to 25.9). Hoey is in shape to run 45.5-45.9 or faster outdoors right now.
Dude. Josh Hoey is NOT running any faster than Seb Coe did over 400m, like I've already stated. He is NOT A SPRINTER!! And neither was Coe.
Coe ran 46.8, 1:41.7, and 3:29. Hoey thus far has run 1:42.0 and 3:29.
I'll give Hoey a 45 high/46 low split in a 4x4 relay tops. But in the open, no way. Just because they run a certain time indoors does not mean they're running a whole second faster outdoors 😭
You are also comparing athletes who specialize in COMPLETELY different events to Hoey. Norman, Ross, Johnson, CMW, etc. All pure 200/400 specialists who would never be competitive over 600m or 800m. They are simply just too fast. They are sprinters. Not middle distance runners.
I don't think you understand the sheer amount of fast twitch muscle fiber needed to run that fast over open 400m. You would need, minimum, 21 low 200M speed and roughly 10.6 100M speed. Hoey is not running anywhere close to that.
Hoey is not like Sumner, or Juantorena, or Jewett. He is not running 45 in the open or splitting 44 in a relay. He is more likely to run 3:27 than he is to run 45 in the 400m.
So a former college mediocrity is now being touted as being better than one of the greatest ever in the sport. The blindness of this place is boggling.
The ignorance of this fraud is mind boggling. Calling Hoey a “college mediocrity”. To defend himself he’ll fall into his usual pilpul, then “… I know you are but what am I,” name calling.
There have been numerous threads making exactly this point; how the hell did a former college nobody make this kind of jump? But you don't read or have no memory of what you have read.
So a former college mediocrity is now being touted as being better than one of the greatest ever in the sport. The blindness of this place is boggling.
He was not a mediocrity. You, on the other hand, are the definition of mediocrity.
He was never touted as going to be at the top of the sport. As I said above, there have previously been threads expressing scepticism - and more - about his recent improvements. But it's par for this fraudulent sport now.
It's not drugs! It's called QUADRUPLE threshold workouts. He's taking the benefits of recent double threshold training, and DOUBLING it! Again, it's not drugs!
Why stop there? He should double it again. Why has no one ever thought of training harder before? Kipketer and co - slackers.
So a former college mediocrity is now being touted as being better than one of the greatest ever in the sport. The blindness of this place is boggling.
Hoey didn't run in college. He was a star in high school.
If you genuinely want to know why he stagnated after high school, the Lets Run staff published a two-part feature on his journey.
He was never touted as going to be at the top of the sport. As I said above, there have previously been threads expressing scepticism - and more - about his recent improvements. But it's par for this fraudulent sport now.
Why do you still follow the sport if you think it’s fraudulent? Sounds like it’s making you miserable. Life is too short to be miserable. Try to find something that makes you happy.
It's been stated several times above, but to reiterate:
1. Rarely run event. Maybe every other world 800m finalist, plus Rai Benjamin, could do a similar time
2. This indoor track is as fast as outdoors, not like the old 11-lap plywood tracks.
3. Bicarb and super spikes.
4. Rudisha did not have bicarb. It seems to make a big difference. Hoey is probably a good responder, getting a big boost from it, buffering the enormous lactic acid at that speed from his size and wide arm swing, making him physiologically more efficient than he looks biomechanically.
Given the context, this performance is not surprising or otherworldly or too good to be true. It's a valid question as to whether he'll figure out how to peak and run tactically smart in the biggest races. I think he probably will.
I agree with points 1, but on the others...
2. Bends are still tighter and there are still more of them indoors. Outdoors is still faster.
3. Super spikes yes. But bicarb....no. I don't understand all the hoo-ha re bicarb lately when bicarb has been used for sports performance for literally DECADES. It is not a new thing!
4. As above. Bicarb was known (and obviously available) when Rudisha was competing.
And baking soda has been around for decades. If it could do a better job than EPO it would have long ago been banned.
Your level of ignorance is astounding. Keep them coming. I enjoy reading your ignorant takes, while you believe you actually know what you're talking about.
So a former college mediocrity is now being touted as being better than one of the greatest ever in the sport. The blindness of this place is boggling.
Hoey didn't run in college. He was a star in high school.
If you genuinely want to know why he stagnated after high school, the Lets Run staff published a two-part feature on his journey.
So even wrs are not beyond a runner who "stagnated" for years. He would have been running 1:39 now if it wasn't for that. This place remains ridiculous.