Ornelas has some comically bad takes on Twitter so not too surprised to see his name in this but I'm somewhere in between on this. The NCAA operates as a semi-pro/minor league for its biggest sports. T&F + XC are catching up to football/basketball in the NIL era. I don't have an issue with someone wanting to come to the US to get a good education and playing a sport gets them that. I do think you can do it poorly/with no commitment to the athlete other than their times. Hopefully kids are getting good support from their coaches in more than just running. But let's not act like this is new. My college has been recruiting white international kids from Ireland/Australia/New Zealand for decades. They won a recent XC championship with a healthy # of international runners scoring. Nobody cared. Now you're seeing 1/2 of an ncaa track championship field filled by Kenyan athletes & people do seem to care. Idk why that is. Idk if the Furman coach is mad about the runners from my school.
At the end of the day, US runners are getting better & better so if there are less spots in D1 maybe that'll push them into D2/D3 and, honestly, that could be a good thing. It's ridiculous how much traveling the big schools do for conference meets. It would be cool to see people competing in state or regionally against close by schools.
Yes, for the 1 millionth time, people are pissed there are a ton of athletes from Ireland, Australia, and New Zealand competing in the NCAA too. People do care they are taking roster spots and scholarships away from Americans.
It's 100% understandable to be MORE upset over the Kenyan athletes than over the Irish athletes, because the Kenyan athletes have an extremely high rate of drug cheating and age cheating. They also were clearly receiving pro running $ as well and should not be eligible but the athletes and coaches lied to the NCAA.
Being mad about having to compete against 28 year old Kenyan dopers DOES NOT mean we are happy about the 23 year old Irish athletes in the NCAA. But we want to fix the biggest problems (and biggest NCAA violations) first.
I get the point but do you honestly believe the reactions are 1:1? You know how these topics go on here so I don't get the point in painting it with a stroke of colorblindness. You know why it's more of a problem now. Plenty of white countries have done very well in the NCAA system for a while now & haven't gotten as serious reactions. Has the Furman coach railed against those athletes in prior years? Doping is also rampant with all countries. Again, I get the argument but I'm still not sold on the argument that coaches shouldn't be recruiting whoever they want. & I do think this could be good for Americans to develop at schools that'll give them the time of day + really good educations. The system has been messed up for a while now with football/conference realignment/NIL/etc. Kids that go to power conference schools often aren't competing in geographic areas that make complete sense. It's layered but looking past race on here is nothing new no matter the spin. It's relevant. Can't ignore it but can still argue whatever system you prefer. Just acknowledge why things are coming to a head now.
Yes, for the 1 millionth time, people are pissed there are a ton of athletes from Ireland, Australia, and New Zealand competing in the NCAA too. People do care they are taking roster spots and scholarships away from Americans.
It's 100% understandable to be MORE upset over the Kenyan athletes than over the Irish athletes, because the Kenyan athletes have an extremely high rate of drug cheating and age cheating. They also were clearly receiving pro running $ as well and should not be eligible but the athletes and coaches lied to the NCAA.
Being mad about having to compete against 28 year old Kenyan dopers DOES NOT mean we are happy about the 23 year old Irish athletes in the NCAA. But we want to fix the biggest problems (and biggest NCAA violations) first.
+1000000 So sick of people trying weasel in these accusations of racism when people point out the obvious issues with Kenyan internationals (for the record I also support limiting internationals from Europe, NZ, ect. as well)
In addition this whole "well this is actually a good thing because American kids will be forced to go to JUCOS, NAIA, and crappy D2 schools and make them better" is the most nonsensical thing I've ever heard. So I'm supposed to get happy that our kids can't attend the STATE SCHOOLS THAT WE PAY FOR to make room fot foreigners. WTF!!!
Why should our children have to yield their opportunities in OUR COUNTRY to foreigners. There are lots of reasons to attend a large state school besides sports like better academic scholarships, financial aid, research opportunities, ect. There is no JUCO running Renaissance coming bozos. This is literal trickle-down economics theory yet people present it like some awesome point int favor of Kenyans.
& I'm sick of LRC never acknowledging race even when it stares you lot in the eyes.
This stuff hasn't been in the forefront in the way that it is now. It's ok to acknowledge that. I didn't say force American kids to go to bad schools. You're overlooking strong academic D3 schools. Nobody is saying your kid can't attend a state school a fraction of your taxes go to. Nobody is taking the schools from you.
My point is that this is what the NCAA system is now. International athletes are in every sport. If that's your issue then go after it.
Anyways, everything I said on this thread was taken out of context because I dared to name why this stuff is getting such strong reactions. I didn't even take a strong stance on it & I didn't say anyone was taking something from any of you. It might be that the NCAA has it all wrong but they've had it wrong for a while now. They've let power conferences/NIL explode athletic budgets & ruin local competition. Maybe it could be better for kids to compete regionally whatever this stuff looks like in the future. That's all. I don't think if we're doing the taxes thing that we should pay for your kid to go to a state school & go fly to meets all around the country if they don't have to. It's all broken. Do we need a million BU entries or can we have meets all around the country.
& I'm sick of LRC never acknowledging race even when it stares you lot in the eyes.
This stuff hasn't been in the forefront in the way that it is now. It's ok to acknowledge that. I didn't say force American kids to go to bad schools. You're overlooking strong academic D3 schools. Nobody is saying your kid can't attend a state school a fraction of your taxes go to. Nobody is taking the schools from you.
My point is that this is what the NCAA system is now. International athletes are in every sport. If that's your issue then go after it.
Anyways, everything I said on this thread was taken out of context because I dared to name why this stuff is getting such strong reactions. I didn't even take a strong stance on it & I didn't say anyone was taking something from any of you. It might be that the NCAA has it all wrong but they've had it wrong for a while now. They've let power conferences/NIL explode athletic budgets & ruin local competition. Maybe it could be better for kids to compete regionally whatever this stuff looks like in the future. That's all. I don't think if we're doing the taxes thing that we should pay for your kid to go to a state school & go fly to meets all around the country if they don't have to. It's all broken. Do we need a million BU entries or can we have meets all around the country.
You would have to be blind, or dumb, to not understand why outrage in international athletes is at an all time high.
IT IS BECAUSE MOST D1 TEAMS ARE CUTTING HALF THEIR ROSTER BECAUSE OF NEW NCAA ROSTER LIMITS!!!
So thousands of D1 track athletes are losing their roster spot, and high school runners have 50% of the number of opportunities to run in college compared to years past. And all this is happening at the moment when international representation in the NCAA is at an all time high. You
Those strong D3 academic schools you mention cost $95,000 per year.
+1000000 So sick of people trying weasel in these accusations of racism when people point out the obvious issues with Kenyan internationals (for the record I also support limiting internationals from Europe, NZ, ect. as well)
In addition this whole "well this is actually a good thing because American kids will be forced to go to JUCOS, NAIA, and crappy D2 schools and make them better" is the most nonsensical thing I've ever heard. So I'm supposed to get happy that our kids can't attend the STATE SCHOOLS THAT WE PAY FOR to make room fot foreigners. WTF!!!
Why should our children have to yield their opportunities in OUR COUNTRY to foreigners. There are lots of reasons to attend a large state school besides sports like better academic scholarships, financial aid, research opportunities, ect. There is no JUCO running Renaissance coming bozos. This is literal trickle-down economics theory yet people present it like some awesome point int favor of Kenyans.
I didn't say force American kids to go to bad schools. You're overlooking strong academic D3 schools. Nobody is saying your kid can't attend a state school a fraction of your taxes go to. Nobody is taking the schools from you.
You may not have said it, but the polices you are advocating for will do exactly that. The SEC will have a 10 man roster limit in August for cross country. Just 2 Kenyans means that 20 percent of the distance running scholarships in that state are unavailable to our kids. Many of these schools have more than just 2. At school like Alabama, HALF the scholarships will be going to Kenyans. That leaves a whopping 5 for the taxpayers. So yes, your policies absolutely will (and already have) "take(n)" those opportunities from those kids.
As another poster pointed out, D3 schools do not give athletic scholarships and are msot are only affordable for a tiny percentage of Americans.
The card hold reality is that for many American families, their in-state public school is the only one they can afford. Your policies are directly harming these people, either through unnecessary financial strain or outright forcing them to not go college. I would love to see you explain to single mom in rural Arkansas why a 28 year old man Kenya should get a scholarship of the University of Arkansas over her state champion son. I don't think vauge accusations of racism would help your case either.
I didn't say force American kids to go to bad schools. You're overlooking strong academic D3 schools. Nobody is saying your kid can't attend a state school a fraction of your taxes go to. Nobody is taking the schools from you.
You may not have said it, but the polices you are advocating for will do exactly that. The SEC will have a 10 man roster limit in August for cross country. Just 2 Kenyans means that 20 percent of the distance running scholarships in that state are unavailable to our kids. Many of these schools have more than just 2. At school like Alabama, HALF the scholarships will be going to Kenyans. That leaves a whopping 5 for the taxpayers. So yes, your policies absolutely will (and already have) "take(n)" those opportunities from those kids.
As another poster pointed out, D3 schools do not give athletic scholarships and are msot are only affordable for a tiny percentage of Americans.
The card hold reality is that for many American families, their in-state public school is the only one they can afford. Your policies are directly harming these people, either through unnecessary financial strain or outright forcing them to not go college. I would love to see you explain to single mom in rural Arkansas why a 28 year old man Kenya should get a scholarship of the University of Arkansas over her state champion son. I don't think vauge accusations of racism would help your case either.
Realize lots of grammar mistakes in here was typing fast, don't have a registered account so can't fix them
I believe you that your concerns aren't about race. But why should we want American athletes (white or black) to have these opportunities if they're not as good as the Nigerian sprinter, Ethiopian distance runner, etc? I don't really get the caring-about-someone-more-because-they're-American thing. If anything, on average, getting an opportunity to go to an American college should make even more of a positive impact on the life of someone from a poorer country.
You are ridiculous.
So if you are an American with a lot of potential who had a bad high school coach, you don't deserve any opportunity to run in college just because there are kids that have been doing track for 12 years in foreign countries.
Then in the corporate world if you are good at your job and deserve a higher salary, you will promptly be laid off and replaced by a foreigner or AI just so your company can save some money.
Apparently we should be ok that Americans are being treated like s*** all the time in our own country.
I've been saying this for YEARS!!! It's always been a problem dating back to the late 70's with the UTEP Kenyan Distance Dynasty. Remember what UTEP scored in the NCAA Champs? 15 POINTS!!! Yep...A perfect score! The NCAA then adopted an two tiered "All-American" option. Top foreign finishers and Top American finishers. They saw the issue back then, and failed to solve it. Now, there's actually money being exchanged in addition to a fully funded education. My solution is to simply limit the number of international athletes on a roster to 30%.
I had the privilege of getting stomped by Lawi Lalang the year AFTER he ran 13:01 in Europe.
I watched Sally Kip dominate XC for a few years.
One time at conference Kennedy Kathuka was so far ahead in an 8k that I didn’t see him for over 20 mins. I was all conference in that race!!!
I could got on but it’s always been this way.
Quit crying Rita and start crootin.
There are plenty of kids in western South Carolina that can ran fast. Jeez
You clearly are out of touch with current “recruiting”. Look up SC milesplit. Surprisingly, the 14-18 year old kids are a helluva lot slower than 25+ yo internationals competing on the professional circuit.
Schubert was one of the best kids out of US HS and is now THE best US collegiate 10k’er.
She says some wild stuff on socials sometime but does a damn good job
As I posted on another thread Rita Gary only cares about 5 of the 21 events in track and field (the distance events). People like her set a bad example that track and field is only the distance events. She should work on developing a complete track and field program. Why is this important? When other places see the easy way that Furman is doing track and field they think it's okay. Take Colorado who is cutting track and field coaches to just keep a distance program. That type of movement is not positive for the sport.
Some programs (like Furman) don't have the funding and backing to develop a complete track program. At some programs it's more cost efficient to give someone a scholarship who can run cross-country, indoor, and outdoor track than an athlete who does one event.
She forgot to mention that they were literally pro athletes before joining the NCAA as 27 year old freshmen.
Coaches need to step up and vote to limit the number of internationals allowed per team. Or congress needs to take action.
What would Petros and his UN team do?!! If the orange short fingered vulgarian was live tweeting the Friday/Saturday meets he would not be pleased that middling Americans were replaced by foreign ringers.