It’s not an American thing. If an American finishes 4th in the 100 m at a global final he is at best ignored and he’s likely to be slammed. It’s that the US is emerging from upwards of bad decade in marathoning, and Mantz is providing some hope things are going to improve.
Bad decade of marathoning?
2016, Galen Rupp, Olympic Bronze medal
2017, Galen Rupp, Chicago Marathon, First place
2017, Galen Rupp, Boston Marathon, Second place
2021, Galen Rupp, Chicago Marathon, Second place
Which decade are you talking about and how has Conner Mantz improved on it? Don't get me wrong, he did great today but he didn't get on the podium...and it had nothing to do with the winners chute and the runner's up chute being on opposite sides of the road. He got easily outkicked and was disposed from potential 2nd place to 4th place in the course of a city block. Rupp would've easily outkicked for 2nd today but of course, he was an Olympic medalist at 10k too.
I don't understand why people feel like having these debates now. In less than 6 months, Conner Mantz is probably going to run Chicago, and he's probably going to break the American record. Debate it then. Why debate it now?
I think Mantz and Young obviously care about Boston but the fall marathon is really where it's at, and this is just a confidence builder and a paycheck towards that if anything. These brothers are about to get paid.
Mantz will run Chicago, 15k top American bonus, if he can run 2:05:08 on a flat course unpaced he can probably do that in Chicago as well, another fat American record bonus.
Young will run New York. 25k top American bonus, he's the runaway favorite for that, he's clearly the 2nd best American right now. With Mantz off the table he'll probably get a juicy appearance fee too.
These brothers are about to get paid. And honestly, I wonder when Casey Clinger sees them rolling up in new Toyota Highlanders if he'll start thinking, maybe less track maybe more roads.
Big Mantz fan but the way he was dropped in that last 100 suggests the tactics of the other two guys was simply to wait until the end. They could have dropped him a few miles earlier and he would have been running back with Linkletter and Young. In a sense they pulled him along. Yes, he pushed the pace and took the lead in front of them frequently, but as soon as he let them lead they'd slow down, confident they would drop him if he didn't break away. And he couldn't break away, because they matched every move he made. Their training (and ahem...protocol) is likely on another level.
So where does Mantz go from here? It's like he has to keep running the race of his life and hope for a few leg cramps etc. Just as with Paris where he followed the move with the leader (for a bit) Mantz always has to follow that move, the exhausting part is, that puts him in the position of always taking the bait, while the other guys just run trusting in their close.
Desperately wanted to see Mantz podium but his competitors seemed to be in control to the very end.
Disagree on the bolded part by far. I don't know what race you were watching, but Mantz was the aggressor in the last two miles by far. He was pulling them along, not the other way. If you don't trust that you have more speed in your legs than they do, then that has to be your tactic: run the hurt into their legs so that they fall back, even by a few feet. Classic strength runner territory.
The part in italics I completely agree with. Which why I've said that I thought Mantz's gutsy emotional running style makes sense for him, and Young's more cerebral approach would be perfect for Valencia: Get on a 2:06 train and ride it all the way to the finish. That Mantz is willing and able to go with moves is a testament to his aerobic ability and, frankly, to his sheer gutsiness.
I'm stunned that Linkletter was able to hold on. He looked very herky-jerky getting dropped off of the lead pack at the 2/3 point in the race and I thought that he was done there, so major props to him to come back and actually beat Clayton. They both come off as very likeable on their videos, and its not hard to root for guys who aren't jerks to do well, whether that "doing well" is showing up in the top 10 of one of the fastest Boston's in history or the Olympics.
So your disagreement is just one of not following though on the rest of my comment. He leads, and they stuck right with him. He let them take the lead and they slowed. They were essentially baiting him, letting him do the work and "pulling" him along by forcing him to lead and wear himself out. If they wanted to drop him they could have. And he would have been running alone.
Like I said, I'm no hater. Big fan. I think "they" have his number.
Mantz has it rough. He's the only non African (ie superhuman class) up there running and he needs all of them to have an off day to have a shot.
I do have the feeling that Mantz probably needs to just go for it as was talked about before the race on Citius and just solo time trial if he wants to win one of these on his merits. The tactics of racing smart are always going to work against him in a field surrounded by 5 Africans.
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"Comfort must not be expected by folks that go a pleasuring."
And ending with Centro/Hocker/Rupp/Rooks/Jager/Fisher/Nuguse? For an Aussie, I can see why you're so frustrated but no reason to argue from a point of ignorance.
That is crazy. I didn't know that Centro/Hocker/Rupp/Rooks/Jager/Fisher/Nuguse all ran Boston today!?! How did they finish?
Presumably faster than Prefontaine? Help me out here 4th street, you say "It is an American Distance thing, starting with Prefontaine..." presumably referencing Prefontaine's 4th place finish at the Munich Olympics in the, wait for it, 5k. What are you...15?
He has a lot of courage. Runs from the front in every race and holds on when his body has rejected him. His turnover makes it look like he is sprinting for 2+ hours. He is impressive for a lot of reasons.
This post was edited 29 seconds after it was posted.
An interesting question is whether Chicago tries to stack the deck for Mantz in the fall. Organizers would almost certainly want an American record, but it wouldn't hit the same if Mantz ends up 4th or 5th. But if they weaken the field to open up the win for him, then it might not go fast enough. It's a tricky spot for them
Well, he's run the 2nd fastest American marathon ever. That seems objectively to qualify him for "one of the all-time greats." I realize he doesn't have an Olympic medal, and I'm not saying he is the greatest, but at least "one of the all-time great performances"? 4th in Boston is incredible for an American, and he was only 5" away from 2nd.
I don't get a chance to say this often but if Connor stays healthy 2 or 3 more years, I do see him standing on the podium of a major or championship. He may not do it 3 or 4 times but if he's STAYS healthy he got a shot between his next FEW 🏆 majors, World 🥉, and the Olympics.
I don't get a chance to say this often but if Connor stays healthy 2 or 3 more years, I do see him standing on the podium of a major or championship. He may not do it 3 or 4 times but if he's STAYS healthy he got a shot between his next FEW 🏆 majors, World 🥉, and the Olympics.
Enough random carnage happens in marathons that eventually he'll knock one out of the park when the east African contenders either drop out(Chebet and Lemma yesterday) or have subpar days. It's a matter of time if he stays consistent. Maybe it'll take a weak field to win(like Rupp winning Chicago), but I think if he sticks with it he'll win one.
Well, he's run the 2nd fastest American marathon ever. That seems objectively to qualify him for "one of the all-time greats." I realize he doesn't have an Olympic medal, and I'm not saying he is the greatest, but at least "one of the all-time great performances"? 4th in Boston is incredible for an American, and he was only 5" away from 2nd.
He “objectively” ran with super shoes on a course that isn’t eligible for records.
Ryan Hall said it best. “It’s not a 2:04:58 day with my shoes. But with your shoes, it is.”
Except it wasn’t because even with the 2 minute advantage provided by super shoes, Mantz still couldn’t match Hall’s time on the same course.
Well, he's run the 2nd fastest American marathon ever. That seems objectively to qualify him for "one of the all-time greats." I realize he doesn't have an Olympic medal, and I'm not saying he is the greatest, but at least "one of the all-time great performances"? 4th in Boston is incredible for an American, and he was only 5" away from 2nd.
He “objectively” ran with super shoes on a course that isn’t eligible for records.
Ryan Hall said it best. “It’s not a 2:04:58 day with my shoes. But with your shoes, it is.”
Except it wasn’t because even with the 2 minute advantage provided by super shoes, Mantz still couldn’t match Hall’s time on the same course.
Hall > Mantz
He is still one of the all time greats though. Please list who is better besides Rupp and Hall? Spare me the championships of old, as marathon running is so much deeper than it was in the 70s and 80s.
I have tremendous respect for both Rupp and Hall. Hall’s brief career inspired the next generation with what is actually possible. But I find his comments about the shoes to be douchy. Why did he neglect to mention that his PR was with a Hurricane force tailwind where the point to point is an huge advantage and that he took gray area thyroid medication?
Can we not just celebrate a 2:05 and damn near on the podium, but for the two African guys who didn’t want to do any of the work over the final 10k? Mantz was 24 seconds behind one of the best marathoners in the world. Not too shabby. A 2:04 is within reach…
Well, he's run the 2nd fastest American marathon ever. That seems objectively to qualify him for "one of the all-time greats." I realize he doesn't have an Olympic medal, and I'm not saying he is the greatest, but at least "one of the all-time great performances"? 4th in Boston is incredible for an American, and he was only 5" away from 2nd.
He “objectively” ran with super shoes on a course that isn’t eligible for records.
Ryan Hall said it best. “It’s not a 2:04:58 day with my shoes. But with your shoes, it is.”
Except it wasn’t because even with the 2 minute advantage provided by super shoes, Mantz still couldn’t match Hall’s time on the same course.
Hall > Mantz
Hall ran with a 20mph wind at his back. If Mantz had that, he and his two fellow finishers would have run 2:02...at least.
I could be wrong but I read Hall's comment to be acknowledging that they don't have the tailwind. He knows his time was influenced by the wind and yesterday wasn't the same. It's almost saying that running close to Hall's time would be an equivalent performance given the lack of wind/shoe factor. Nobody can exactly weigh the influence of wind vs. shoes and Mantz wasn't too far off. I'm sure Hall was impressed.
He “objectively” ran with super shoes on a course that isn’t eligible for records.
Ryan Hall said it best. “It’s not a 2:04:58 day with my shoes. But with your shoes, it is.”
Except it wasn’t because even with the 2 minute advantage provided by super shoes, Mantz still couldn’t match Hall’s time on the same course.
Hall > Mantz
He is still one of the all time greats though. Please list who is better besides Rupp and Hall? Spare me the championships of old, as marathon running is so much deeper than it was in the 70s and 80s.
I have tremendous respect for both Rupp and Hall. Hall’s brief career inspired the next generation with what is actually possible. But I find his comments about the shoes to be douchy. Why did he neglect to mention that his PR was with a Hurricane force tailwind where the point to point is an huge advantage and that he took gray area thyroid medication?
Can we not just celebrate a 2:05 and damn near on the podium, but for the two African guys who didn’t want to do any of the work over the final 10k? Mantz was 24 seconds behind one of the best marathoners in the world. Not too shabby. A 2:04 is within reach…
“Hurricane force tailwind”? This is why I’m here. The hyperbolic attempts to elevate Mantz while dishonoring his predecessors need to be countered.
On the day Hall ran 2:04, the women’s winner ran 2:22:36. That shows the effect of the tailwind is overblown.
These American runners were all better than Mantz.
Frank Shorter Boston Billy Rodgers Alberto Salazar Khalid Khannouchi Mebrahtom "Meb" Keflezighi Ryan Hall Galen Rupp
Mantz is in the second tier with Abdi Abdirahman and Dathan Ritzenhein. Very good company.
I don't get a chance to say this often but if Connor stays healthy 2 or 3 more years, I do see him standing on the podium of a major or championship. He may not do it 3 or 4 times but if he's STAYS healthy he got a shot between his next FEW 🏆 majors, World 🥉, and the Olympics.
Enough random carnage happens in marathons that eventually he'll knock one out of the park when the east African contenders either drop out(Chebet and Lemma yesterday) or have subpar days. It's a matter of time if he stays consistent. Maybe it'll take a weak field to win(like Rupp winning Chicago), but I think if he sticks with it he'll win one.
....
I'm not talking about getting lucky like you're thinking or JUST staying consistent, if he STAYS healthy I can see Connor eventually running 2:03:30 - 2:04:15 and earning his podium spot.
Well, he's run the 2nd fastest American marathon ever. That seems objectively to qualify him for "one of the all-time greats." I realize he doesn't have an Olympic medal, and I'm not saying he is the greatest, but at least "one of the all-time great performances"? 4th in Boston is incredible for an American, and he was only 5" away from 2nd.
He “objectively” ran with super shoes on a course that isn’t eligible for records.
Ryan Hall said it best. “It’s not a 2:04:58 day with my shoes. But with your shoes, it is.”
Except it wasn’t because even with the 2 minute advantage provided by super shoes, Mantz still couldn’t match Hall’s time on the same course.
Hall > Mantz
Ryan Hall and Conner Mantz in real life - good friends cheering each other on
Random nobodies on the internet - angrily fighting about whether a tailwind or supershoes is better
He is still one of the all time greats though. Please list who is better besides Rupp and Hall? Spare me the championships of old, as marathon running is so much deeper than it was in the 70s and 80s.
I have tremendous respect for both Rupp and Hall. Hall’s brief career inspired the next generation with what is actually possible. But I find his comments about the shoes to be douchy. Why did he neglect to mention that his PR was with a Hurricane force tailwind where the point to point is an huge advantage and that he took gray area thyroid medication?
Can we not just celebrate a 2:05 and damn near on the podium, but for the two African guys who didn’t want to do any of the work over the final 10k? Mantz was 24 seconds behind one of the best marathoners in the world. Not too shabby. A 2:04 is within reach…
“Hurricane force tailwind”? This is why I’m here. The hyperbolic attempts to elevate Mantz while dishonoring his predecessors need to be countered.
On the day Hall ran 2:04, the women’s winner ran 2:22:36. That shows the effect of the tailwind is overblown.
These American runners were all better than Mantz.
Frank Shorter Boston Billy Rodgers Alberto Salazar Khalid Khannouchi Mebrahtom "Meb" Keflezighi Ryan Hall Galen Rupp
Mantz is in the second tier with Abdi Abdirahman and Dathan Ritzenhein. Very good company.
Respect the predecessors.
Nobody is “disrespecting the predecessors,” though marathon depth shifted after the 80s, so comparisons there are disingenuous.
And speaking of deflecting hyperbole, interesting you failed to point out the Boston course record was set on that infamous 2011 tailwind day, and Hall was damn near two minutes behind the winner, not a mere 24 seconds.
Ultimately, Mantz will need a medal and/or major win to be considered in the highest tier, but a 2:04 podium on a record eligible course would be the greatest actual performance in my book.
“Hurricane force tailwind”? This is why I’m here. The hyperbolic attempts to elevate Mantz while dishonoring his predecessors need to be countered.
On the day Hall ran 2:04, the women’s winner ran 2:22:36. That shows the effect of the tailwind is overblown.
These American runners were all better than Mantz.
Frank Shorter Boston Billy Rodgers Alberto Salazar Khalid Khannouchi Mebrahtom "Meb" Keflezighi Ryan Hall Galen Rupp
Mantz is in the second tier with Abdi Abdirahman and Dathan Ritzenhein. Very good company.
Respect the predecessors.
Nobody is “disrespecting the predecessors,” though marathon depth shifted after the 80s, so comparisons there are disingenuous.
And speaking of deflecting hyperbole, interesting you failed to point out the Boston course record was set on that infamous 2011 tailwind day, and Hall was damn near two minutes behind the winner, not a mere 24 seconds.
Ultimately, Mantz will need a medal and/or major win to be considered in the highest tier, but a 2:04 podium on a record eligible course would be the greatest actual performance in my book.
Then why didn’t the women run faster in 2011?
If there was a guy running 2:03 yesterday, then Mantz would have finished 2 minutes behind too.
Only reason Mantz was that “close” is because the winner ran conservatively the first 20 miles. As soon as Korir decided to drop the hammer, the race was over. He coasted from there.
If you want to play the time comparison game, Hall beat the top woman in his race by almost 18 minutes. Mantz beat the top woman yesterday by only 12 minutes.
Nobody is “disrespecting the predecessors,” though marathon depth shifted after the 80s, so comparisons there are disingenuous.
And speaking of deflecting hyperbole, interesting you failed to point out the Boston course record was set on that infamous 2011 tailwind day, and Hall was damn near two minutes behind the winner, not a mere 24 seconds.
Ultimately, Mantz will need a medal and/or major win to be considered in the highest tier, but a 2:04 podium on a record eligible course would be the greatest actual performance in my book.
Then why didn’t the women run faster in 2011?
If there was a guy running 2:03 yesterday, then Mantz would have finished 2 minutes behind too.
Only reason Mantz was that “close” is because the winner ran conservatively the first 20 miles. As soon as Korir decided to drop the hammer, the race was over. He coasted from there.
If you want to play the time comparison game, Hall beat the top woman in his race by almost 18 minutes. Mantz beat the top woman yesterday by only 12 minutes.
Hall > Mantz
And if there was a 20-mph tailwind as in 2011, then Mantz probably runs the course record yesterday, certainly a 2:03.
Time comparisons are stupid overall, just as are generational comparisons. Hall is the one playing the “time comparison game,” no one else.