Agree with your assessment. Bowdoin is tough..SM is also difficult.. I'd rate Bowdoin about 10 sec slower for a 17:00 boy and about 15 for a 20:00 lady. I have been to all the regional NXR courses...they are pool tables!!
St Francis Pas course in Loretto Pa. My FCS D1 conference had our Conference Championships there and I have never seen a harder course. The first mile is downhill, the next 4 are pretty much all up hill. I've run 4:10 in the mile and ran over 30 minutes there for 8k. I watched a 4:01 miler literally walk up one of the hills. The course is so hard that they have never been selected to host the conference meet again.
VCP, Holmdel, Wickham, and Hereford are all hilly course but still decently fast. Many sub-16:00s and sub-18:00s every year and truly elite boys could approach 15:00 or even dip under (Cheserek, Ostberg, Sherry, etc.).
Bowdoin and Sunken Meadow are very tough courses and a good 15-30 seconds slower than that group depending on the day, but still not impossibly slow (as shown by Tuohy's 16:45 and 16:52 course records, great as they are). Monroe-Woodbury is similar, maybe a bit harder but not significantly.
Thetford, on the other hand, is actually, legitimately, brutal. Gavin Sherry had an excellent race and barely squeaked under 16:00. Aidan Puffer and Callum Sherry failed to do so despite being elite runners themselves. The fastest boys in VT usually run 16:30-17:00 on this course. It's truly insane.
There are going to be a few random smaller courses here and there that may be harder, but Thetford must be the hardest championship course out there for sure.
+1. I grew up running Holmdel and Van Cortland and recently moved to Vermont. The Thetford Academy course is at another level -- stupid hard.
Hereford used to be a hard course, but between the school building a water tower, parking lot for the football field, the dip being changed because of erosion on the hill and the finish line being changed so that it is difficult for parents to watch the finish - Hereford is only still used because of tradition. Time to move the state meet to somewhere centrally located, spectator friendly and create a course that better represents where most of state lives
I think the course has changed but this was the fastest race I am aware of at Thetford. Mcgovern got us later that year at NE's but the course was significantly slower due to rain/mud. This was perfect conditions and everybody went out hard. Mint Henk is the best hs xc guy ever out of Vermont. Mcgovern was a beast and like 20 years old.
was waiting for this one. This plus Seton Hill (NOT Hall) are in western PA mountain areas/hill country and are brutal. We called Seton Hill's course Seton Hell
I dont have much of a say since I run my local courses, but here's what my list is. Definitely would like to hear thoughts!
1. Holmdel Park (Holmdel, NJ)
2. PTXC (Kutztown, PA)
3. Greystone (Morristown, NJ)
4. Darlington Park (Mahwah, NJ)
5. Oak Ridge Park (Clark, NJ)
This list is kind of sad if you are going for the entire northeast. Lewis Morris Park runs about 30-40 seconds slower than Holmdel, although it has since been retired. Garret Mountain is harder than Greystone and Darlington by far.
It’s very fair as is. Everyone knows the course. You train for the course and race the course on race day. Level playing field.
The course is mostly the same from the pre 2014 course. I’d wager the current rendition is 10s faster than the Centro rendition. Crazy when the winner runs 16:0x. Would be 16:45-16:50 for a 5k.
I think the course has changed but this was the fastest race I am aware of at Thetford. Mcgovern got us later that year at NE's but the course was significantly slower due to rain/mud. This was perfect conditions and everybody went out hard. Mint Henk is the best hs xc guy ever out of Vermont. Mcgovern was a beast and like 20 years old.
New Englands in 2021 was pretty fast too, some fantastic runners (Puffer and the Sherry brothers).
If we're really talking ANY course, I would submit Newtown Battlefield in Upstate NY. Hasn't been in use for over a decade but there were a number of quality runners that ran there including Jeff Martinez (8:57 2-miler back when you could count on one hand the number of sub-9:00 guys) and Lauren Mullins (2x FL qualifier). To my knowledge the fastest times run there were 17:20 by Brian Crimmins (he ran 4:09 that year) and 19:27 by Mullins (in the year she got 21st at FL). Martinez only managed 17:46.
Probably best to keep it to championship courses only though.
Could anyone offer feedback on how Northfield Mtn. (site of MA D1 Championships in 24) compares in difficulty to Bowdoin Park. I think Northfield is the most difficult course in New England, but don't know much about NY courses.
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