Jakob still doesn’t get he can’t lead wire to wire

Leave race strategy to the experts wrote:

Armstronglivs wrote:

The limits on your cultural experience have been shown, but you also demonstrate with your argument about a 2-mile record that you have quite missed the point about how Jakob stacks up in an event less than half that distance. His "strength" over the 2 mile is undoubted, but that has nothing to do with his being able to produce a sprint finish to beat his competition, which is what he needs in order to ensure winning over the 1500 - and which is the Achilles heel amongst his considerable talents.

None of that has anything to do with his personality which, as quite a few posters here observe, is a big-head and not a very good sport.

Look, it’s obvious you have no personal experience in distance racing and shouldn’t be posting in threads about races or the people that run them. Your comment about strength having nothing to with a kick, is just flat out ignorant.

You should get the hell out of this thread and take your culture with you. Like I said before, I had liked some of your comments in other threads, but the sh*t you’ve posted in the recent ones about racing, has made me lose all respect for you as a poster. During my several years of posting on LR, I’ve probably bothered to block about 5 posters and you will be the 6th.

justanothercuriousdude wrote:

Armstronglivs wrote:

The point I was making - which you have missed - is that in a 1500 race, whether it was run hard from the bell or just the last two laps, all runners are at their aerobic limit by the home straight. But the great kickers can find an extra gear. It isn't about 800 ability - Rudisha could never have won the 1500 at Moscow - but the ability to shift a gear when pushed to the limit.

Great kickers can’t kick when the pace is too fast -that’s why we say running the kick out of somebody..! Take extraordinary kickers like Beamish, Nordås and Kincaid -there’s no kick there if they go with the leaders. The same with Ovett -he lost in Moscow (1500m) because he hadn’t Coe’s 800m speed (in a strung out fast last 700m). It was nothing about shifting ability. Both Coe and Ovett and Cram had splendid shifting ability when being fresh, but none whatsoever when fatigued. Like everybody else. -Watch Coe’s loss against Bile, despite the former reported in good 200m shape…

I’m not saying that a 2.05 is only a warmup for every 800m runner (so yes, even such a slow pace would maybe taken it’s toll on an aerobically weak runner in the 1500m like Rudisha, but maybe not Wilson Kipketer), but for 1500m guys like Ovett and Coe 2.05 is so slow that the race is converted into a 800m. -Still quite aerobic like a 800m also is, but of course the 8/1500m guys would have an advantage over a 1500/5000m guy -also on the home straight, and also if the 800/1500m guy wasn’t known for his good kick. -He would have a fast home straight simply based on better average speed than a 1500/5000m guy… But not in a fast race..!

objectiveobserver wrote:

Armstronglivs wrote:

The limits on your cultural experience have been shown, but you also demonstrate with your argument about a 2-mile record that you have quite missed the point about how Jakob stacks up in an event less than half that distance. His "strength" over the 2 mile is undoubted, but that has nothing to do with his being able to produce a sprint finish to beat his competition, which is what he needs in order to ensure winning over the 1500 - and which is the Achilles heel amongst his considerable talents.

None of that has anything to do with his personality which, as quite a few posters here observe, is a big-head and not a very good sport.

As far as I remember you very much doubted Jakob´s strenghts over the 2 miles BEFORE the race in Paris. Didn´t you agree with another poster that Jakob possibly would run 8:03 to 8:05?

objectiveobserver wrote:

Armstronglivs wrote:

I think Cheruiyot was slowing, as he was running out of gas (unlike his exceptional effort in the earlier WC). Jakob had more in the tank at the end but it wasn't a kick like the examples I described above, which showed sudden and spectacular acceleration. That kind of finish isn't part of Jakob's toolkit.

Timothy ran slightly faster in the Tokyo 2021 final than in Doha 2019; 3:19.01 to 3:29.26 and with a much slower start in Tokyo. SO TRY AGAIN ARMSTRONG!

I don´t doubt you will find another way to denigrate Jakob´s finish.

Have you ever commented on Jakob´s foodspeed in DL Oslo and Lausanne 2023 where Jakob shifted gear and ran away from the best milers in the world, including Kerr.

I think I have asked you and other negativists before and I don´t remember to have seen an answer? The negativists don´t like to see their biased claims confronted with facts.

justanothercuriousdude wrote:

One for five wrote:

I wish the interviewer would have pushed back when Jakob said that 18 out of 20 garbage. “I’m not talking about rabbited Diamond League races with pacing lights, Jakob. I’m talking about championship 1500 finals in which you have a 1-4 record. With the exception of one race when another runner took it out hard and basically served as a rabbit, your strategy hasn’t resulted in wins. You’re only one for five in global championship 1500 finals. Do you think you should try something different?”

The sample pot is two little to conclude the way you do here, because:

1. We don’t know if Jakob would have won without Cheruiyot’s pacing in Olympics 2021. But from how it looks my opinion is that Jakob would have won easily also without the Kenyan…

2. In the indoors WC Jakob was clearly affected by covid. Would clearly won easily without.

3. In WC 2023 Jakob was sick, and would have won with a huge margin if healthy.

4. The WC loss in 2022 to Wightman: The only race that fits your narrative. But not necessarily -one could instead say that Wightman was the best athlete that day (and close to Jakob’s season best), or that Jakob could have gotten the win with a slightly faster third lap…

justanothercuriousdude wrote:

Armstronglivs wrote:

I don't think you are right about great kickers. The best weren't only good off a slow pace. They could kick off a fast pace - which is why they were great, and not simply lucky to find themselves in a position to sprint after an earlier dawdle. What great kickers have is RELATIVE acceleration against their competitors. When everybody is pushed to their limits the great kickers have that bit extra at the finish. That is why the endurance type without a kick often doesn't win when the kicker is still with them at the finish.

I don’t agree. Take a “bad finisher” like McSweyn -when he is in shape he can be a fierce competitor even on the home straight. So in my view an athlete like him has mostly a consistency problem, and not a kicking one. At least in theory McSweyn could have the capacity to beat almost all of the best, even on the home straight, if he only found a solution to his inconsistency…

But when it comes to kickers in general I think this is a myth -I think we can find more than one fast race for every famous kicker where they have no kick what so ever..! You just don’t kick when you are too spent…

One for five wrote:

justanothercuriousdude wrote:

The sample pot is two little to conclude the way you do here, because:

1. We don’t know if Jakob would have won without Cheruiyot’s pacing in Olympics 2021. But from how it looks my opinion is that Jakob would have won easily also without the Kenyan…

2. In the indoors WC Jakob was clearly affected by covid. Would clearly won easily without.

3. In WC 2023 Jakob was sick, and would have won with a huge margin if healthy.

4. The WC loss in 2022 to Wightman: The only race that fits your narrative. But not necessarily -one could instead say that Wightman was the best athlete that day (and close to Jakob’s season best), or that Jakob could have gotten the win with a slightly faster third lap…

I don’t buy those lame excuses. If he was 4 for 5 in 1500m championships, I could see the one loss being a fluke due to a unique circumstance. But when someone is 1 for 5, it’s clear which one is the aberration.

Ingo Gringo wrote:

The man lost 2 worlds and and World Indoor in a row while dominating in paced races. And the indoor was to Tefera who he can't lose to in a paced diamond league event!

He's either in denial, or more likely trying to maintain the invincible aura to put the other athletes off. It ain't happening, Kerr thinks he's got his number and he's right. He can't do him in that last 600m unless its 3.28 pace or better, and Kerr is likely to be in form to match that.

Saying that I want Ingo to win cos I like the all time great runners who always accept all the pressure of being favourite, while lesser mortals play everything down. I'm thinking of the annoying "humility fraud" Rafa Nadal who always acts like each French Open could either be his last or it's going to be so tough to win, then proceeds to batter everybody as if he's playing juniors. Did it for ten years straight and every year acted the same.

It's why I secretly love the Americans who are good at being bigheads. Carl Lewis types, who likely shops for groceries like an Olympic champion.

One for five wrote:

justanothercuriousdude wrote:

The sample pot is two little to conclude the way you do here, because:

1. We don’t know if Jakob would have won without Cheruiyot’s pacing in Olympics 2021. But from how it looks my opinion is that Jakob would have won easily also without the Kenyan…

2. In the indoors WC Jakob was clearly affected by covid. Would clearly won easily without.

3. In WC 2023 Jakob was sick, and would have won with a huge margin if healthy.

4. The WC loss in 2022 to Wightman: The only race that fits your narrative. But not necessarily -one could instead say that Wightman was the best athlete that day (and close to Jakob’s season best), or that Jakob could have gotten the win with a slightly faster third lap…

I don’t buy those lame excuses. If he was 4 for 5 in 1500m championships, I could see the one loss being a fluke due to a unique circumstance. But when someone is 1 for 5, it’s clear which one is the aberration.

Ingo Gringo wrote:

The man lost 2 worlds and and World Indoor in a row while dominating in paced races. And the indoor was to Tefera who he can't lose to in a paced diamond league event!

He's either in denial, or more likely trying to maintain the invincible aura to put the other athletes off. It ain't happening, Kerr thinks he's got his number and he's right. He can't do him in that last 600m unless its 3.28 pace or better, and Kerr is likely to be in form to match that.

Saying that I want Ingo to win cos I like the all time great runners who always accept all the pressure of being favourite, while lesser mortals play everything down. I'm thinking of the annoying "humility fraud" Rafa Nadal who always acts like each French Open could either be his last or it's going to be so tough to win, then proceeds to batter everybody as if he's playing juniors. Did it for ten years straight and every year acted the same.

It's why I secretly love the Americans who are good at being bigheads. Carl Lewis types, who likely shops for groceries like an Olympic champion.