Great interview with Steve Cram - says Jakob has no chance of WRs this year

justanothercuriousdude wrote:

Armstronglivs wrote:

You're comparing runners 40 years apart. Cram had two records Jakob doesn't - and may never have.

Cram’s records were relatively weak, and didn’t stay for long. I myself watched Ovett, Coe and Cram many times live, and I’m not impressed over what they accomplished in the 1500m / mile -very weak results compared to the athletes before them (Walker, Bayi and especially Herb Elliott) and after (Morcelli, El Guerrouj). Yes, these three brits ran (despite their good 800m pb’s) so poorly that I a couple of months ago rewatched most of their races to find out why… My conclusion was as follows:

1. Steve Ovett seemed to lack talent for mid distance (or he trained wrongly), physically, psychologically and strategically (although he looked lean, had a good stride and very good field positioning ability) -he just ran slow. But I think he might have had a talent in the 3/5k, if he had tried this earlier, before injuries…

2. Seb Coe: For a long time he sliced tens of a second (around 3.32) of the WR along with Ovett. -Very poor running compared to Herb Elliott’s 3.35.6 (that is worth sub 3.30 -modern shoes / tracks / pacing). But Coe had clearly a capacity Ovett lacked; he just had to run his first lap more conservatively to get his two only good times (3.47 / 3.29). To me neither Coe was a good 1500m runner -as an all time great he is rescued by his 1.41 and 2.12).

3. Steve Cram -I’m not impressed. And I find it a little strange that he gives advices to a so much better runner (Jakob). But also Cram is sort of rescued by his 800m pb (1.42.8). Saying that he is clearly the best of the three mentioned brits, mostly because of the potential he showed in his Bislett mile WR (could maybe have done a 1.44 high). Sad he hadn’t Jakob to learn from at the time -don’t care about the competition (Coe). Concentrate on running decent and fast…

Yes, it’s forty years ago. But Jakob is close to much better WR’s… Since the last interview with Cram Jakob has become Olympic champ, broken three WR’s, scared the mile WR and 3000m WR, and is back to back W champ in the 5000m (in a season of sickness and injuries). 22 years old at the time. -Should he change his training after this? To a training that did so little for the brits? (Except Kerr and Wightman who first became decent elite after increasing their endurance). Because of what a lot of “experts” are saying in interviews and on the LRC forum? Without knowing how he trains or what his real 800m time is / can be?

justanothercuriousdude wrote:

Cram’s records were relatively weak, and didn’t stay for long. I myself watched Ovett, Coe and Cram many times live, and I’m not impressed over what they accomplished in the 1500m / mile -very weak results compared to the athletes before them (Walker, Bayi and especially Herb Elliott) and after (Morcelli, El Guerrouj). Yes, these three brits ran (despite their good 800m pb’s) so poorly that I a couple of months ago rewatched most of their races to find out why… My conclusion was as follows:

1. Steve Ovett seemed to lack talent for mid distance (or he trained wrongly), physically, psychologically and strategically (although he looked lean, had a good stride and very good field positioning ability) -he just ran slow. But I think he might have had a talent in the 3/5k, if he had tried this earlier, before injuries…

2. Seb Coe: For a long time he sliced tens of a second (around 3.32) of the WR along with Ovett. -Very poor running compared to Herb Elliott’s 3.35.6 (that is worth sub 3.30 -modern shoes / tracks / pacing). But Coe had clearly a capacity Ovett lacked; he just had to run his first lap more conservatively to get his two only good times (3.47 / 3.29). To me neither Coe was a good 1500m runner -as an all time great he is rescued by his 1.41 and 2.12).

3. Steve Cram -I’m not impressed. And I find it a little strange that he gives advices to a so much better runner (Jakob). But also Cram is sort of rescued by his 800m pb (1.42.8). Saying that, he is clearly the best of the three mentioned brits, mostly because of the potential he showed in his Bislett mile WR (could maybe have done a 1.44 high). Sad he hadn’t Jakob to learn from at the time -don’t care about the competition (Coe). Concentrate on running decent and fast…

Yes, it’s forty years ago. But Jakob is close to much better WR’s… Since the last interview with Cram Jakob has become Olympic champ, broken three WR’s, scared the mile WR and 3000m WR, and is back to back W champ in the 5000m (in a season of sickness and injuries). 22 years old at the time. -Should he change his training after this? To a training that did so little for the brits? (Except Kerr and Wightman who first became decent elite after increasing their endurance). Because of what a lot of “experts” are saying in interviews and on the LRC forum? Without knowing how he trains or what his real 800m time is / can be?

can't believe it, again wrote:

Army;

Walker certainly had achilles issues - in 1976 it curtailed his training for the Montreal Olympics (not sure about 1975 - his sub-3.50 Mile WR). That is why (under Arch Jelley) he couldn't handle the Lydiard hill phase. I didn't know about the Compartment issues as well. But Cram certainly had it - but didn't get an operation? Dick Quax had it and DID get an operation, as did Mary Decker (upon Dick's advice).

HH is talking about Cram and Aouita celebrating (not JI).

If speed cannot be developed, then why do sprinters even bother training? That is a short-sighted throwaway from your NZ hero Lydiard (a marathon guy). Stop putting him on a pedestal - he was great in his element, but his understanding of physiology was limited. Something Peter Snell realized after becoming an Ex.Phys. himself - but he was too much of a gentleman to criticize Lydiard after all that he had done for him.

justanothercuriousdude wrote:

Cram’s records were relatively weak, and didn’t stay for long. I myself watched Ovett, Coe and Cram many times live, and I’m not impressed over what they accomplished in the 1500m / mile -very weak results compared to the athletes before them (Walker, Bayi and especially Herb Elliott) and after (Morcelli, El Guerrouj). Yes, these three brits ran (despite their good 800m pb’s) so poorly that I a couple of months ago rewatched most of their races to find out why… My conclusion was as follows:

1. Steve Ovett seemed to lack talent for mid distance (or he trained wrongly), physically, psychologically and strategically (although he looked lean, had a good stride and very good field positioning ability) -he just ran slow. But I think he might have had a talent in the 3/5k, if he had tried this earlier, before injuries…

2. Seb Coe: For a long time he sliced tens of a second (around 3.32) of the WR along with Ovett. -Very poor running compared to Herb Elliott’s 3.35.6 (that is worth sub 3.30 -modern shoes / tracks / pacing). But Coe had clearly a capacity Ovett lacked; he just had to run his first lap more conservatively to get his two only good times (3.47 / 3.29). To me neither Coe was a good 1500m runner -as an all time great he is rescued by his 1.41 and 2.12).

3. Steve Cram -I’m not impressed. And I find it a little strange that he gives advices to a so much better runner (Jakob). But also Cram is sort of rescued by his 800m pb (1.42.8). Saying that, he is clearly the best of the three mentioned brits, mostly because of the potential he showed in his Bislett mile WR (could maybe have done a 1.44 high). Sad he hadn’t Jakob to learn from at the time -don’t care about the competition (Coe). Concentrate on running decent and fast…

Yes, it’s forty years ago. But Jakob is close to much better WR’s… Since the last interview with Cram Jakob has become Olympic champ, broken three WR’s, scared the mile WR and 3000m WR, and is back to back W champ in the 5000m (in a season of sickness and injuries). 22 years old at the time. -Should he change his training after this? To a training that did so little for the brits? (Except Kerr and Wightman who first became decent elite after increasing their endurance). Because of what a lot of “experts” are saying in interviews and on the LRC forum? Without knowing how he trains or what his real 800m time is / can be?

justanothercuriousdude wrote:

Armstronglivs wrote:

You're comparing runners 40 years apart. Cram had two records Jakob doesn't - and may never have.

Cram’s records were relatively weak, and didn’t stay for long. I myself watched Ovett, Coe and Cram many times live, and I’m not impressed over what they accomplished in the 1500m / mile -very weak results compared to the athletes before them (Walker, Bayi and especially Herb Elliott) and after (Morcelli, El Guerrouj). Yes, these three brits ran (despite their good 800m pb’s) so poorly that I a couple of months ago rewatched most of their races to find out why… My conclusion was as follows:

1. Steve Ovett seemed to lack talent for mid distance (or he trained wrongly), physically, psychologically and strategically (although he looked lean, had a good stride and very good field positioning ability) -he just ran slow. But I think he might have had a talent in the 3/5k, if he had tried this earlier, before injuries…

2. Seb Coe: For a long time he sliced tens of a second (around 3.32) of the WR along with Ovett. -Very poor running compared to Herb Elliott’s 3.35.6 (that is worth sub 3.30 -modern shoes / tracks / pacing). But Coe had clearly a capacity Ovett lacked; he just had to run his first lap more conservatively to get his two only good times (3.47 / 3.29). To me neither Coe was a good 1500m runner -as an all time great he is rescued by his 1.41 and 2.12).

3. Steve Cram -I’m not impressed. And I find it a little strange that he gives advices to a so much better runner (Jakob). But also Cram is sort of rescued by his 800m pb (1.42.8). Saying that, he is clearly the best of the three mentioned brits, mostly because of the potential he showed in his Bislett mile WR (could maybe have done a 1.44 high). Sad he hadn’t Jakob to learn from at the time -don’t care about the competition (Coe). Concentrate on running decent and fast…

Yes, it’s forty years ago. But Jakob is close to much better WR’s… Since the last interview with Cram Jakob has become Olympic champ, broken three WR’s, scared the mile WR and 3000m WR, and is back to back W champ in the 5000m (in a season of sickness and injuries). 22 years old at the time. -Should he change his training after this? To a training that did so little for the brits? (Except Kerr and Wightman who first became decent elite after increasing their endurance). Because of what a lot of “experts” are saying in interviews and on the LRC forum? Without knowing how he trains or what his real 800m time is / can be?

John Wesley Harding wrote:

justanothercuriousdude wrote:

Cram’s records were relatively weak, and didn’t stay for long. I myself watched Ovett, Coe and Cram many times live, and I’m not impressed over what they accomplished in the 1500m / mile -very weak results compared to the athletes before them (Walker, Bayi and especially Herb Elliott) and after (Morcelli, El Guerrouj). Yes, these three brits ran (despite their good 800m pb’s) so poorly that I a couple of months ago rewatched most of their races to find out why… My conclusion was as follows:

1. Steve Ovett seemed to lack talent for mid distance (or he trained wrongly), physically, psychologically and strategically (although he looked lean, had a good stride and very good field positioning ability) -he just ran slow. But I think he might have had a talent in the 3/5k, if he had tried this earlier, before injuries…

2. Seb Coe: For a long time he sliced tens of a second (around 3.32) of the WR along with Ovett. -Very poor running compared to Herb Elliott’s 3.35.6 (that is worth sub 3.30 -modern shoes / tracks / pacing). But Coe had clearly a capacity Ovett lacked; he just had to run his first lap more conservatively to get his two only good times (3.47 / 3.29). To me neither Coe was a good 1500m runner -as an all time great he is rescued by his 1.41 and 2.12).

3. Steve Cram -I’m not impressed. And I find it a little strange that he gives advices to a so much better runner (Jakob). But also Cram is sort of rescued by his 800m pb (1.42.8). Saying that, he is clearly the best of the three mentioned brits, mostly because of the potential he showed in his Bislett mile WR (could maybe have done a 1.44 high). Sad he hadn’t Jakob to learn from at the time -don’t care about the competition (Coe). Concentrate on running decent and fast…

Yes, it’s forty years ago. But Jakob is close to much better WR’s… Since the last interview with Cram Jakob has become Olympic champ, broken three WR’s, scared the mile WR and 3000m WR, and is back to back W champ in the 5000m (in a season of sickness and injuries). 22 years old at the time. -Should he change his training after this? To a training that did so little for the brits? (Except Kerr and Wightman who first became decent elite after increasing their endurance). Because of what a lot of “experts” are saying in interviews and on the LRC forum? Without knowing how he trains or what his real 800m time is / can be?

This is one of the worst posts in history. Congrats.

John Wesley Harding wrote:

justanothercuriousdude wrote:

Cram’s records were relatively weak, and didn’t stay for long. I myself watched Ovett, Coe and Cram many times live, and I’m not impressed over what they accomplished in the 1500m / mile -very weak results compared to the athletes before them (Walker, Bayi and especially Herb Elliott) and after (Morcelli, El Guerrouj). Yes, these three brits ran (despite their good 800m pb’s) so poorly that I a couple of months ago rewatched most of their races to find out why… My conclusion was as follows:

1. Steve Ovett seemed to lack talent for mid distance (or he trained wrongly), physically, psychologically and strategically (although he looked lean, had a good stride and very good field positioning ability) -he just ran slow. But I think he might have had a talent in the 3/5k, if he had tried this earlier, before injuries…

2. Seb Coe: For a long time he sliced tens of a second (around 3.32) of the WR along with Ovett. -Very poor running compared to Herb Elliott’s 3.35.6 (that is worth sub 3.30 -modern shoes / tracks / pacing). But Coe had clearly a capacity Ovett lacked; he just had to run his first lap more conservatively to get his two only good times (3.47 / 3.29). To me neither Coe was a good 1500m runner -as an all time great he is rescued by his 1.41 and 2.12).

3. Steve Cram -I’m not impressed. And I find it a little strange that he gives advices to a so much better runner (Jakob). But also Cram is sort of rescued by his 800m pb (1.42.8). Saying that, he is clearly the best of the three mentioned brits, mostly because of the potential he showed in his Bislett mile WR (could maybe have done a 1.44 high). Sad he hadn’t Jakob to learn from at the time -don’t care about the competition (Coe). Concentrate on running decent and fast…

Yes, it’s forty years ago. But Jakob is close to much better WR’s… Since the last interview with Cram Jakob has become Olympic champ, broken three WR’s, scared the mile WR and 3000m WR, and is back to back W champ in the 5000m (in a season of sickness and injuries). 22 years old at the time. -Should he change his training after this? To a training that did so little for the brits? (Except Kerr and Wightman who first became decent elite after increasing their endurance). Because of what a lot of “experts” are saying in interviews and on the LRC forum? Without knowing how he trains or what his real 800m time is / can be?

This is one of the worst posts in history. Congrats.

can\'t believe it, again wrote:

Army;

Walker certainly had achilles issues - in 1976 it curtailed his training for the Montreal Olympics (not sure about 1975 - his sub-3.50 Mile WR). That is why (under Arch Jelley) he couldn't handle the Lydiard hill phase. I didn't know about the Compartment issues as well. But Cram certainly had it - but didn't get an operation? Dick Quax had it and DID get an operation, as did Mary Decker (upon Dick's advice).

HH is talking about Cram and Aouita celebrating (not JI).

If speed cannot be developed, then why do sprinters even bother training? That is a short-sighted throwaway from your NZ hero Lydiard (a marathon guy). Stop putting him on a pedestal - he was great in his element, but his understanding of physiology was limited. Something Peter Snell realized after becoming an Ex.Phys. himself - but he was too much of a gentleman to criticize Lydiard after all that he had done for him.