I mention their age because the mid-twenties is not when top athletes can be expected to make out-of-the-park improvements naturally. Nor is there any accepted data that confirms a 2-second improvement over 1500m from new spikes and lights, or that record-breaking races are achieved now through better pacing than in the past. Would wave-light have improved El G's 3:26, run with almost perfectly even laps? That 2-secs improvement you see is easily the effect of doping.
If "better" technology was making such a difference then it is oddly not observable in some events, such as the 800m - or even the 1500m and the mile, where the best times were achieved in the late '90's.
Like most fans, you won't see what you don't want to.
And I counter 22-23.5 is disingenuous to call mid-20s. There is plenty of growing evidence to suggest superspikes/wavelights are quickening times. The longer/slower you go the bigger effect (explaining your 800m counter), which explains Katir excelling more in the 3-5k relative to times historically. Ditto Jakob. El Guerrouj had 1050m of good pacing in his WR, my point on times was to say the 80s were not optimized. Watch the fastest races from the Brits and it’s clear. I don’t disagree there was doping in the 90s and believe El G more than likely doped, but I’d actually agree with you that pacing then was quite excellent. It was not in the 80s, and frequently not in the 00s.
The faster times you say are the result of innovations are in this case in the 1500m, not the longer events. There has been no quickening in that event since the '90's. The athletes we are discussing haven't made giant strides (pardon the pun) in the longer events, which you believe are more amenable to technological "progress". The runners we are discussing have gone shorter distances to run faster. Much faster. That goes against your point. The progress that you see in longer events from shoes and wave-light is also easily attributable to doping because the data, such as it is, on shoes and wave-light can't discount it.
The faster times you say are the result of innovations are in this case in the 1500m, not the longer events. There has been no quickening in that event since the '90's. The athletes we are discussing haven't made giant strides (pardon the pun) in the longer events, which you believe are more amenable to technological "progress". The runners we are discussing have gone shorter distances to run faster. Much faster. That goes against your point. The progress that you see in longer events from shoes and wave-light is also easily attributable to doping because the data, such as it is, on shoes and wave-light can't discount it.
Wrong. Katir has run 3:28.7/8 which is a really nice time for a guy whose best event is the 3k/5k. Jakob similarly runs nice times for a superstar who admittedly is better suited for the 3k and 5k. The innovations are magnified in the 3k+ where the spikes have a bigger effect. There has been quickening in the 1500 with 8 guys under 3:30 in one race and a rash of fast times with more depth. Random non-DL meets are regularly won in sub-3:32-3. You can chalk Morceli/El Guerrouj/Lagat up to doping, but even if so they were further from the field at 1500 than Katir. Right now the only potential outlier 1500 guy is Jakob. But presently hes top in the 1500, but it’s the 3k where his ability is historic. Lets see how it progresses, but in the 90s it is not like races regularly went 5 deep with sub-3:28 or 10 deep with sub-3:30.
The faster times you say are the result of innovations are in this case in the 1500m, not the longer events. There has been no quickening in that event since the '90's. The athletes we are discussing haven't made giant strides (pardon the pun) in the longer events, which you believe are more amenable to technological "progress". The runners we are discussing have gone shorter distances to run faster. Much faster. That goes against your point. The progress that you see in longer events from shoes and wave-light is also easily attributable to doping because the data, such as it is, on shoes and wave-light can't discount it.
Wrong. Katir has run 3:28.7/8 which is a really nice time for a guy whose best event is the 3k/5k. Jakob similarly runs nice times for a superstar who admittedly is better suited for the 3k and 5k. The innovations are magnified in the 3k+ where the spikes have a bigger effect. There has been quickening in the 1500 with 8 guys under 3:30 in one race and a rash of fast times with more depth. Random non-DL meets are regularly won in sub-3:32-3. You can chalk Morceli/El Guerrouj/Lagat up to doping, but even if so they were further from the field at 1500 than Katir. Right now the only potential outlier 1500 guy is Jakob. But presently hes top in the 1500, but it’s the 3k where his ability is historic. Lets see how it progresses, but in the 90s it is not like races regularly went 5 deep with sub-3:28 or 10 deep with sub-3:30.
The issue isn't how many guys can run sub-3:30 today compared to the '90's but how two particular runners have put themselves in that category when they were nowhere near it a year ago. You don't have a problem with them being 3:36 runners who can now run 3:29 or just below, but what would cause you problems - if they had been, 3:37, 38, 39 or even 3:40 runners? Or, alternatively, if they were both running 3:28 or better now? Where do you draw the line and why? And why do you give these guys a pass?
This post was edited 35 seconds after it was posted.
Americans jealous as always , that a country with population of 5 milion can produce better middle distance runners than country with 300 milion people. Norwegians know how to train, simple.
Norway had a 40yr old win the 10k biathlon. IN THE RUSSIA Olympics, against some of the heaviest epo users of any sport. The highest VO2 max ever recorded was from a Norwegian, in the freakin 90s, when athletes where taking enough EPO to kill a horse.
Hahaha… The idea that Norway has no history of doping, is so dumb and racist, I would only expect to find it on Letsrun.
I mean, look at the results of previous olympics and world championships. Norway most of the time had won most medals in biathlon and cross country skiing. 3 highest recordings of VO2max are by Norwegians thats true but that doesnt mean they needed to take EPO to achieve this. Norway has history of doping but look at the wikipedia, there are 23 doping cases among Norwegian athletes. Spain has 56, USA has 200 ,kenya has 31, Russia has 298.
For one, Nordas is much more suspect. He has only one good performance, zero indication that he should even get close to 3:29. Especially considering he has a 1:58 800m pr and similar prs to a high level NCAA runner. #2 The page is full of Norwegian fanboys that know nothing about running and wouldn't be here if not to suck Jacobs nuts.
Norway had a 40yr old win the 10k biathlon. IN THE RUSSIA Olympics, against some of the heaviest epo users of any sport. The highest VO2 max ever recorded was from a Norwegian, in the freakin 90s, when athletes where taking enough EPO to kill a horse.
Hahaha… The idea that Norway has no history of doping, is so dumb and racist, I would only expect to find it on Letsrun.
I mean, look at the results of previous olympics and world championships. Norway most of the time had won most medals in biathlon and cross country skiing. 3 highest recordings of VO2max are by Norwegians thats true but that doesnt mean they needed to take EPO to achieve this. Norway has history of doping but look at the wikipedia, there are 23 doping cases among Norwegian athletes. Spain has 56, USA has 200 ,kenya has 31, Russia has 298.
And normalize by population
Usa 331m = 200
Norway 5.4= 1409
Spain 46m = 302
Kenya 53m = 193
Russia 145m = 680
Norway is by far the dirtiest country on the list. It is like when you see a Russian woman winning. Sure they might be clean but given the countries long history of cheating, the odds are against it...
Nordas is 24, Katir is 25. Still struggling with subtraction?
Minor details which show you have no argument to counter mine. But it does confirm my previous observation they are in their mid-twenties. Own goal. Thank you for that.
What's the meaning of "own goal"? For you those discussions seem to be some sort of competition where you have to beat the other posters?
Whatever your point was which you wanted to show, Nordas is 24 and Katir is 25.
Just because you like to twist facts when it's helpful to persuade others doesn't mean others do the same. Facts are facts and you often struggle with extremely easy ones (like the ages of two popular runners).
Wow. That post indicates that you know nothing about the sport. First off all. How many 800 meter has Nordas completed? He said last year that he had so much more in him than that "only" 1 race in 1500m. He has maybe the best coach there is around who doea things in his own way.
Rojo might “think” Katir is dirty based off of reliable information. Typically when people who are associated with direct ties to pro runners, they get the inside scoop on what’s actually going on. A lot of people think Katir is cheating because he is and gets away with it, like a lot of other athletes do. For example, adel mechaal and anyone who also had ties to jama Aden- they are 100% dirty. But they know how to get around the tests, and continue to make money off of aided fitness and performances.
does it need to be stated again that Nordas likely could have run a 3:33 of 3:34 last year? improvement is not only in numbers.
to say something simple like the "numbers are the numbers" just doesn't work. just as well all know that Nordas is not truly a 1:58 man.
sure he could be doping, but he is not the same as Katir.
We should also mention that although Katir went 3:36 to 3:29, the 3:36 year was during peak COVID, 2020. A lot of complexities and uncertainties that year and athletes confused on what to train for or how to outline their training/when to peak. Cole Hocker and Athing Mu made huge improvements in 2021 on paper.
Minor details which show you have no argument to counter mine. But it does confirm my previous observation they are in their mid-twenties. Own goal. Thank you for that.
What's the meaning of "own goal"? For you those discussions seem to be some sort of competition where you have to beat the other posters?
Whatever your point was which you wanted to show, Nordas is 24 and Katir is 25.
Just because you like to twist facts when it's helpful to persuade others doesn't mean others do the same. Facts are facts and you often struggle with extremely easy ones (like the ages of two popular runners).
In the context of the discussion about two athletes making huge improvements in their twenties your point about whether they are 23 or 24 is irrelevant. It makes no difference to the argument.
This post was edited 1 minute after it was posted.
What's the meaning of "own goal"? For you those discussions seem to be some sort of competition where you have to beat the other posters?
Whatever your point was which you wanted to show, Nordas is 24 and Katir is 25.
Just because you like to twist facts when it's helpful to persuade others doesn't mean others do the same. Facts are facts and you often struggle with extremely easy ones (like the ages of two popular runners).
In the context of the discussion about two athletes making huge improvements in their twenties your point about whether they are 23 or 24 is irrelevant. It makes no difference to the argument.
It makes a difference because it shows you are ignorant/lying.
They also know how to full throttle dope their athletes,in track and field,cross country skiing,triathlon,cycling,speed skating,and biathlon,and they know they can get away with it.The fact that norway can beat USA,and russia, is suspect in itself,because the americans and russians are also full on dopers.
In the context of the discussion about two athletes making huge improvements in their twenties your point about whether they are 23 or 24 is irrelevant. It makes no difference to the argument.
It makes a difference because it shows you are ignorant/lying.
A mistake of fact isn't a lie but failing to see its irrelevance to the point at issue certainly shows ignorance - yours.
Wow. That post indicates that you know nothing about the sport. First off all. How many 800 meter has Nordas completed? He said last year that he had so much more in him than that "only" 1 race in 1500m. He has maybe the best coach there is around who doea things in his own way.
Neither off them are cheating.
Both of them are. In a sport rife with doping you might wonder what it takes for fans to see progressions like theirs are as clear a demonstration of doping as anything will be.
This post was edited 1 minute after it was posted.
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