The secrets of double threshold training are revealed. From Norway to Flagstaff: How Double Threshold Training Is Taking Over the World

LetsRun.com · 2023-06-14T00:02:36-04:00

Jonathan Gault's latest feature is one of my all-time favorites. It includes quotes from Seb Coe, Mike Smith, Marius Bakken, Hobbs Kessler, Laurie Henes, Cruz Culpepper, Ben Rosario and many others.https://www.letsrun.com/news/2023/06/from-norway-to-flagstaff-how-double-threshold-training-is-taking-over-the-world/PS. Most of it is behind our SC paywall for 72 hours (until Saturday). Sign up for the SC today here: letsrun.com/subscribe

Training Advice/Discussion General

Reply New New Thread

Moderation Moderation Information Moderation Information & Rules

Page 5 of 8

1 4 5 6 8

Next Last

2 years ago 06/16/2023 6:40am EDT

re: jecht

jecht wrote:
I did like the breakdown for this. For marathon volume they would probably change it to longer reps (recovery dependent on other factors)
In the sample training week provided in the paper, the four threshold interval workouts are:
-Tuesday morning: 5 x 6:00 at 2.5 mmol/L with 1:00 recovery
-Tuesday evening: 10 x 1,000 meters at 3.5 mmol/L with 1:00 recovery
-Thursday morning: 5 x 2,000 meters at 2.5 mmol/L with 1:00 recovery
-Thursday evening: 25 x 400 meters at 3.5 mmol/L with 0:30 recovery
For that last workout, the authors report observing “international level distance runners” running the 400-meters reps in 64 seconds while keeping lactate below 4.0 mmol/L. That’s just over 4:16 mile pace, which is quite a bit faster than what we usually think of as “threshold,” even for top runners. But the interval structure keeps it from becoming a sufferfest that will take too long to recover from.

It was discovered way back in the 70s that you could run a large number of fairly fast, short repeats with very short rest and still keep lactate levels low.

2 years ago 06/16/2023 7:13am EDT

re: just trying to understand

just trying to understand wrote:
Maybe I'm slow but I don't understand where they get the speed from. From what I understand the double threshold training is doing two workouts in a day at 'threshold pace'. From what I read Jakob does this twice a week and a hill workout but I don't see where he would get that 1500 speed. Can anyone please explain this to me?

From the TV series about the family, the hill repeats workout looked to be fast, high quality running. Perhaps you only need one session a week of that to maintain 1500m closing speed?

2 years ago 06/16/2023 7:42am EDT

re: Steffe

how do they break down the pacing for each workout approximately ?

2 years ago 06/16/2023 7:49am EDT

re: jcwoijfea;d

jcwoijfea;d wrote:

Well put. Add to this that many young runners tend to do tempo runs too fast, and I think the double threshold system is a win, especially if you can implement it early on. Not only will the athlete be better educated about lactate and what exactly "threshold" means, but with double sessions, they will be less prone to go too fast due to the high volume.

Additionally, as mentioned in the Running Trips article, I think athletes should be built up to double thresholds, especially if they have other non-running stressors in life. Start them off doing an easy run in the morning and a threshold session in the evening. After that, have them do a short morning session of fartlek/cruise intervals @ ~80% HR max with a true threshold session in the evening, and only then progress to double threshold if they're doing well.

2 years ago 06/16/2023 1:47pm EDT

re: jbartyy

jbartyy wrote:
how do they break down the pacing for each workout approximately ?

~10k pace with the lactate levels strictly monitored

2 years ago 06/16/2023 3:32pm EDT

re: jecht

The Next question is who's going to figure out how to run 5k pace and faster and still make it a threshold workout with enough volume. I want to see people doing 50x200 @5k->3k pace with 30 seconds rest and 100x100 @ 3k-> 15 pace and finally 200 x 50 @ 15 down to 8 pace. I think once we start hitting the 100x100 and 200x50 we can finally take down 3:26 and 1:40.

2 years ago 06/16/2023 4:14pm EDT

re: Freshold

Freshold wrote:
The Next question is who's going to figure out how to run 5k pace and faster and still make it a threshold workout with enough volume. I want to see people doing 50x200 @5k->3k pace with 30 seconds rest and 100x100 @ 3k-> 15 pace and finally 200 x 50 @ 15 down to 8 pace. I think once we start hitting the 100x100 and 200x50 we can finally take down 3:26 and 1:40.

Great points!

2 years ago 06/16/2023 4:19pm EDT

re: running is in the stone age

running is in the stone age wrote:
I agree that running is moving away from that mentality (as shown with the double threshold days) but its still far from the norm and late to the party.
Perhaps "targeted" cross training is a better phrase. I'm talking getting on the bike with specific workouts targeting stuff like threshold, aerobic, VO2, max output.
As you said, running is weight bearing and therfore limits total volume and quality. Cycling, triathlon, swimming get in 20-30 hrs per week while us runners max out at 11 or 12. By doing something like cycling you can spend a lot more time in each training zone without risk of injury. This improves cardiac output, recovery ability, power, lean muscle mass, etc.
Link:velo.outsideonline.com/road/road-train...
This guy used the bike to build a massive aerobic base that made him unstoppable. If 30+ hrs/week of aerobic training is useful for a 12 minute race imagine what it could do for a marathon?
Its a theory, but it just seems to me a lot is left on the table. It's proven that our bodies can handle significantly more stimulus than pure running can offer.

Well, cycling is good in many ways until very suddenly it is catastrophic. I'll give two examples:

1. Lukas Verbizcas - had a career-ending bicycle crash.

2. Cadel Evans - the 2011 Tour de France Winner suffered three fractured collar bones in about one year.

2 years ago 06/16/2023 4:25pm EDT

re: Badging office

Apology: Lukas Verzbicas is the proper spelling.

2 years ago 06/17/2023 3:37am EDT

re: LetsRun.com

The double threshold system clearly works, but in every article I can find online there's no mention to the transition part to the track, i.e., the last weeks of which Gjert and Jakob were talking about when approaching race season.

I obviosuly get that in precompetitive and competitive phase the amount of double threshold and the overall threshold volume goes down, but how is that replaced? How do they transition from their aerobic buildup to the track season. They maintain the 1500m speed with a speed development session on Monday and with those hills, but how does a precompetitive week look? Because I get that they probably do 300s, 400s at race pace, but it's too generic in my opinion. In other words, in every single article about double threshold we don't have the icing on the cake, which is very important if someone doesn't want to mess it all.

And another thing to understand for athletes who can't handle high mileage, is whether the double threshold session may be replaced with an equivalent one on the boost or on the elliptical to get the same benefit without running 18 or more km per week

2 years ago 06/17/2023 7:30am EDT

re: LetsRun.com

"Smith, who learned about the system by reading Bakken’s old blog posts from the early 2000s, was one of the first to bring it to North America, taking advantage of the flexible schedule afforded by virtual classes during the COVID pandemic to introduce it at NAU during the 2020-21 school year. Now, more and more coaches are incorporating its principles."

How much of an academic workload did NAU athletes have before?

2 years ago 06/17/2023 8:48am EDT

re: Freshold

Freshold wrote:
The Next question is who's going to figure out how to run 5k pace and faster and still make it a threshold workout with enough volume. I want to see people doing 50x200 @5k->3k pace with 30 seconds rest and 100x100 @ 3k-> 15 pace and finally 200 x 50 @ 15 down to 8 pace. I think once we start hitting the 100x100 and 200x50 we can finally take down 3:26 and 1:40.

Igoli did this in the 60s and 70s.

2 years ago 06/17/2023 11:17am EDT

re: loI

loI wrote:
"Smith, who learned about the system by reading Bakken’s old blog posts from the early 2000s, was one of the first to bring it to North America, taking advantage of the flexible schedule afforded by virtual classes during the COVID pandemic to introduce it at NAU during the 2020-21 school year. Now, more and more coaches are incorporating its principles."
How much of an academic workload did NAU athletes have before?

They call it “the Harvard of the Big Sky”

2 years ago 06/17/2023 1:17pm EDT

re: ItalianJob

ItalianJob wrote:
The double threshold system clearly works, but in every article I can find online there's no mention to the transition part to the track, i.e., the last weeks of which Gjert and Jakob were talking about when approaching race season.
I obviosuly get that in precompetitive and competitive phase the amount of double threshold and the overall threshold volume goes down, but how is that replaced? How do they transition from their aerobic buildup to the track season. They maintain the 1500m speed with a speed development session on Monday and with those hills, but how does a precompetitive week look? Because I get that they probably do 300s, 400s at race pace, but it's too generic in my opinion. In other words, in every single article about double threshold we don't have the icing on the cake, which is very important if someone doesn't want to mess it all.
And another thing to understand for athletes who can't handle high mileage, is whether the double threshold session may be replaced with an equivalent one on the boost or on the elliptical to get the same benefit without running 18 or more km per week

I thought Gjert said they mainly use track races as their track work during the season and continue to work on threshold. Go to 3:00 in the video below:

YouTube.com

GJERT INGEBRIGTSEN ON THE NORWEGIAN TRAINING FORMULA

CITIUS MAG

David McCarthy chats with legendary Norwegian coach Gjert Ingebrigtsen after Narve Gilje Nordas runs 3:32.39 for the 1500m win at the On Track Nights: Paris ...

Watch on YouTube

2 years ago 06/17/2023 1:19pm EDT

re: Appreciation??

Appreciation?? wrote:
ItalianJob wrote:
The double threshold system clearly works, but in every article I can find online there's no mention to the transition part to the track, i.e., the last weeks of which Gjert and Jakob were talking about when approaching race season.
I obviosuly get that in precompetitive and competitive phase the amount of double threshold and the overall threshold volume goes down, but how is that replaced? How do they transition from their aerobic buildup to the track season. They maintain the 1500m speed with a speed development session on Monday and with those hills, but how does a precompetitive week look? Because I get that they probably do 300s, 400s at race pace, but it's too generic in my opinion. In other words, in every single article about double threshold we don't have the icing on the cake, which is very important if someone doesn't want to mess it all.
And another thing to understand for athletes who can't handle high mileage, is whether the double threshold session may be replaced with an equivalent one on the boost or on the elliptical to get the same benefit without running 18 or more km per week
I thought Gjert said they mainly use track races as their track work during the season and continue to work on threshold. Go to 3:00 in the video below:
Video:www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pxsMLaTIg8

Jakob is not doing this now.

2 years ago 06/18/2023 11:28am EDT

re: Appreciation??

Appreciation?? wrote:
ItalianJob wrote:
The double threshold system clearly works, but in every article I can find online there's no mention to the transition part to the track, i.e., the last weeks of which Gjert and Jakob were talking about when approaching race season.
I obviosuly get that in precompetitive and competitive phase the amount of double threshold and the overall threshold volume goes down, but how is that replaced? How do they transition from their aerobic buildup to the track season. They maintain the 1500m speed with a speed development session on Monday and with those hills, but how does a precompetitive week look? Because I get that they probably do 300s, 400s at race pace, but it's too generic in my opinion. In other words, in every single article about double threshold we don't have the icing on the cake, which is very important if someone doesn't want to mess it all.
And another thing to understand for athletes who can't handle high mileage, is whether the double threshold session may be replaced with an equivalent one on the boost or on the elliptical to get the same benefit without running 18 or more km per week
I thought Gjert said they mainly use track races as their track work during the season and continue to work on threshold. Go to 3:00 in the video below:
Video:www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pxsMLaTIg8

Yes, I watched that video, but the problem with Gjert Ingebrigtsen is that he often hides the truth of their training. I remember a podcast in norwegian who was translated in a thread here were he claimed Jakob run before the Florence european record in the 5000m something like 25x400 starting at 57 and not slowing down, but then maybe the 400 were just 12, or maybe 15. Gjert is very good at answering questions without giving the real answer to the question asked. And I understand that, he has a formula that works, and everyone knows what they do in their base phase, but in the 5-7 weeks leading up to championships season what they do remains uncertain, and when asked, his answer is not an accurate and precise one, because probably that's is "secret" . In the TV show the last workout by Jakob before Tokyo was shown on camera and Gjert said it was pretty hard despite being close to the competition because of the problem of handling the heats and semifinals. However, the workout wasn't mentioned at all

2 years ago 06/18/2023 12:07pm EDT

re: Tribe

Tribe wrote:
In the late 1990s Bill Dellinger served as the interim head distance coach for 6months at Wake Forest while they were recruiting a new coach. I got to see his “Oregon System” which I presume had been in place for decades. It consisted of 2 workouts a day every Tuesday and Thursday and a race or single hard session on Saturday. The workouts were shorter but more intense than the double threshold stuff but still the same principal. Here’s the breakdown:
Tuesday am - Oregon drill - 3 x 1000m done easy (3:30), medium (3:00) and hard (2:40) - these times are rough estimates for what the avg runner was hitting (mostly 14:20 ish runners). Rest between intervals consisted of 10x 100m strides done easy, medium hard with 10s between strides.
Tuesday pm - 4000m continuous running alternating 400m at 5 k race pace with 200m at tempo (a variant of the old pre workout)
Thursday am: Oregon drill
Thursday pm: 2400m continuous running alternating 300m at just below mile pace with 100m at just below tempo pace (ended up running ~5k pace for the 2400m)
Saturday: race or more traditional intervals.
The wake guys improved massively with this training. They ended up with three guys running under or close to 4min and finished 7th in XC the next year.
I’m pretty sure this training was what Dellinger used in the glory days of Salazar, Prefontain etc at Oregon. Maybe this was the dawn of the two workouts a day philosophy.

Was this when Gary Sievers was hired at Wake? He ran for Oregon and was pretty fast at 800 and 1500. When he coached at College of Southern Idaho for a few years he did straight up by the book Oregon system

2 years ago 06/18/2023 12:31pm EDT

re: God bless the US

God bless the US wrote:
Appreciation?? wrote:
I thought Gjert said they mainly use track races as their track work during the season and continue to work on threshold. Go to 3:00 in the video below:
Video:www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pxsMLaTIg8
Jakob is not doing this now.

Can you tell us, then, what Jakob is doing now?

2 years ago 06/18/2023 12:36pm EDT

re: St. Ignatius of Antioch

St. Ignatius of Antioch wrote:
God bless the US wrote:
Jakob is not doing this now.
Can you tell us, then, what Jakob is doing now?

Do your own homework, Vlad!

2 years ago 06/18/2023 12:43pm EDT

re: God bless the US

I’m not totally convinced double threshold is the “secret.” Bowerman and OAC are the two best US based teams and neither do double threshold, as mentioned in the LetsRun article. These groups typically do 8-10 miles of threshold in one go. Kipchoge’s group doesn’t do double threshold either. Again, they do 8-10 miles at once. These groups are often doubling on these days, too. So the overall volume is similar, around 20 miles for the day. I wonder if the biggest benefit to double threshold comes from having a massive mileage day with some controlled intensity. As others have mentioned, a big benefit to double threshold is that it slows the athlete down and often prevents them from going too fast, which most are prone to doing. Running closer to 3.0 mmol instead of 4.0 or going over the line.

Page 5 of 8

1 4 5 6 8

Next Last

What People Are Talking About On LetsRun

No top threads at the moment. Check back soon.

Reply Replying to

Username

Password

Leave the password field blank to post anonymously.

Post Preview

By posting you acknowledge that you have read and abide by our Terms and Conditions.

Remember me on this device.

The secrets of double threshold training are revealed. From Norway to Flagstaff: How Double Threshold Training Is Taking Over the World

This thread has already been deleted.

You have been subscribed.

The secrets of double threshold training are revealed. From Norway to Flagstaff: How Double Threshold Training Is Taking Over the World

Jump To A Page

Follow jbartyy

Block jbartyy

Follow Appreciation??

Block Appreciation??

Follow Runner10287

Block Runner10287

Follow jecht

Block jecht

Follow ItalianJob

Block ItalianJob

Follow Runner10287

Block Runner10287

Follow bruv

Block bruv

Follow Appreciation??

Block Appreciation??

Follow ItalianJob

Block ItalianJob

Follow Hayduke

Block Hayduke

Follow St. Ignatius of Antioch

Block St. Ignatius of Antioch

Jump To A Page

This thread has already been deleted.

Reply Replying to

You have been subscribed.