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10
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21218 wrote:
Viren was from Finland. When did Finland become a part of Scandinavia?
Hasn't it always been?
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Adoi wrote:
onlyposter wrote:
Epo wasn't around for another decade.
If Coe had retired in 86 when blood transfusions became illegal, like El G retired when epo testing came in, or Rudisha retired when the ABP started catching athletes, it would have been suspicious. He didn't. He ran low 1:43 at 32.
The EPO test was introduced in 2000.
El G won double Olympic gold in 2004.
I'm not saying El G was clean, but don't try to make the facts fit nice and neatly into a little narrative you've constructed, when they clearly don't.
There was no reliable EPO test until the 2008 season.
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Les wrote:
Adoi wrote:
The EPO test was introduced in 2000.
El G won double Olympic gold in 2004.
I'm not saying El G was clean, but don't try to make the facts fit nice and neatly into a little narrative you've constructed, when they clearly don't.
There was no reliable EPO test until the 2008 season.
Let's not forget that even now if you really know how to do it properly (microdosing etc) it's hard to get caught. I mean we even have situations where irregular test results (like Peter Bol) are not seen as worrisome (incredibly) and in fact are being used as evidence the entire testing procedure/protocols are not accurate enough.
And you are right - there was no really reliable test for EPO prior to 2008 - I could be wrong here but I am almost sure that this was because the major testing method involved RBC/hematocrit threshold rather than identifying synthetic markers like they do/have now.
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600yd/600m man wrote:
Deanouk wrote:
I think they were all clean, but your reasoning is pretty comical. Ovett's agent and the best man at his wedding was Andy Norman, who practically run UK athletics at the time from his police desk. He was also in charge of the 'random' drug testing of UK and foreign athletes at all UK athletic fixtures. His influence allowed Ovett to pick and choose where and when he ran (at home and in Europe), as opposed to the rest of the UK team at the time (including Coe), who were contracted to run a specific number of meaningless races at home, in order to be allowed to run on the European circuit. There have been several accounts of him purposely not testing more elite foreign visitors when competing on UK soil, while picking Coe almost every time he ran. I'm pretty sure that he'd have loved to catch Coe, as Ovett's main rival. He didn't, because Coe was almost certainly clean.
Conclusion, if any of the 3 Brits is likely to have doped, it is almost certainly Ovett. He had the connections to get away with it and/or stop him from being tested in the first place.
I reiterate, I in no way think Ovett doped, I'm just playing Devil's advocate to baseless accusations against Coe, from someone who has nothing to offer other than being an Ovett fan.
You're wrong. Ovett demonstrated higher level 200m & 400m talent from age 12 or 13. As Ovett trained as an 800m man more and more, Ovett's 800m talent caught up to his 200m & 400m talent. I know Cram was a non-factor in Coe's 1979 3:48.xx or 3:49.xx Oslo mile w.r. I can't comment on his p.e.d. use. I've stated my opinion on Coe and what it took for him to sprint 46.xx 400m.
Wrong about what, exactly!?
You seem oblivious to the fact that adolesence does not happen uniformally for everyone at a specific age. Ovett was very developed at 13 and fully developed by 17. Coe was still a child at 13 and nowhere his adult height and weight at 17. In spite of being small for his age, he was still school, town and area champion over 60yds at 11, before any training or joining an athletics club, so natural latent speed was always there. He joined Hallamshire Harriers at 12 and wanted to run XC and distance. He was English Schools champion over 3000m at 16. The idea he didn't have exceptional speed and endurance while developing is plainly not true, he just took a longer time and curve to reach adulthood. You also seem to ignore the fact that he was UK 800m record holder before Ovett and set it at 20 (1:44.95 in 1977), quicker than Ovett's pb (1:45.4) at the same age.
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Olympic teams often have a dentist as part of their medical team.
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Deanouk wrote:
600yd/600m man wrote:
You're wrong. Ovett demonstrated higher level 200m & 400m talent from age 12 or 13. As Ovett trained as an 800m man more and more, Ovett's 800m talent caught up to his 200m & 400m talent. I know Cram was a non-factor in Coe's 1979 3:48.xx or 3:49.xx Oslo mile w.r. I can't comment on his p.e.d. use. I've stated my opinion on Coe and what it took for him to sprint 46.xx 400m.
Wrong about what, exactly!?
You seem oblivious to the fact that adolesence does not happen uniformally for everyone at a specific age. Ovett was very developed at 13 and fully developed by 17. Coe was still a child at 13 and nowhere his adult height and weight at 17. In spite of being small for his age, he was still school, town and area champion over 60yds at 11, before any training or joining an athletics club, so natural latent speed was always there. He joined Hallamshire Harriers at 12 and wanted to run XC and distance. He was English Schools champion over 3000m at 16. The idea he didn't have exceptional speed and endurance while developing is plainly not true, he just took a longer time and curve to reach adulthood. You also seem to ignore the fact that he was UK 800m record holder before Ovett and set it at 20 (1:44.95 in 1977), quicker than Ovett's pb (1:45.4) at the same age.
Deanouk we already know that Coe was the cleanest and most talented 800m runner of all time. Anything else?
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zxcvzxcv wrote:
However, blood doping was common in that era and toxoplasmosis was very rare among healthy young men, while much more common among blood dopers, and Loughborough University, where Coe trained, ran public advertisements, which I have seen, for volunteer test subjects for steroid research during the time that he was there. That was where Coe transformed from a run of the mill decent teenage runner who would not be competitive with any of the top fifty American high schoolers today to a world historical athlete whose legacy is still being debated forty years later.
What are you on about! Between 30% and 50% of the world's population have contracted toxoplasmosis, which hardly constitutes as being 'rare.' In the mid 80's the entire Royal Ballet that were touring the Far East went down with it and had to cancel the remaining tour and fly back to the UK as they were so ill. These were young, fit dancers. Or do you propose they felt the need to all blood dope!? Or perhaps it is more likely they caught it, as most do, by eating some dodgy under-cooked meat!
You state that "toxoplasmosis was.... much more common among blood dopers." Really!? Please give us some names of those dopers who had toxoplasmosis?
The idea that a teenage Coe wouldn't be competitive with the top 50 US athletes of the same age in that era is also patently ludicrous. He was English Schools champion over 3000m at 16 and European Junior bronze medalist over 1500m at 18, beating Flynn and Abascal. Please name even TEN US 18 year olds better than Coe at 18 in 1975.
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KraftMacAndCheese wrote:
THOUGHTSLEADER wrote:
Rudisha retired when he had a ridiculous string of injuries/accidents. Please, let's not start with made-up narratives.
You really think Rudisha was clean?
His first 800 ever was like 1:49 or 1:50 didn't need to dope when he was so far ahead from the beginning
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Coe coe wrote:
affacc wrote:
Can you name some blood dopers who developed toxoplasmosis?
Do you consider being English schoolboys 3000m champion and the European junior 1500m bronze medalist to be 'run of the mill'?
Coe ran a 50r 400 a 51 open at age 18. This is with multiple attempts between age 16 & 18.
Then, at age 20. Runs a 1:44.
More nonsense.
He ran just 1 400m open (51.8) at 16, when focused on 3000/1500m in 1973.
He ran ZERO 400m in 1974, aged 17.
He ran just 1 400m relay in 1975, aged 18, when focusing almost solely on 1500m that year. He ran it an hour or so after running and winning his only 800m of the year.
So that's a total of 2 races over 1 lap in 3 seasons, yet you claim this was 'with multiple attempts between age 16 & 18.' An outright lie.
He was 20 when he ran a pb of 1:44.95 (which for record purposes at the time would have been listed as 1:45.0 at the time. At that time he had a 400m pb of 48.9, which is totally in line with what Cram did at 21, a year older than Coe's age, when his corresponding pbs were 1:44.45 and 49.1.
You're a troll peddling BS.
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zxcvzxcv wrote:
Toxoplasmosis is much more common among those who have had blood transfusions.
Age 18, nearly 19:
1975
3:45.2h Athina (GRE) 23 AUG 197519, nearly 20
1976 3:58.35 London (GBR) 30 AUG 1976
Not much of a prospect. Yet, he's suddenly running 1:46.54 in March 1977!
"Toxoplasma is an obligate intracellular parasite, which can infect human by different modes mostly by ingestion and inhalation of contaminated products. Occasionally T. gondii could be transmitted from person to person by modes of mother-to-child transmission, organ transplantation and or rarely by blood transfusion. In context of transmission by blood transfusion, although the risk is theoretically possible but there are rare reports in the literature."
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Hosoer wrote:
longjack wrote:
with all coe's records, that pacing is abysmal
rudisha's 140 had no drafting.
and kipkiter, he never ran a perfect one either at peak.
and ovett, had he focused on 800 and not focused on cross country and the mile, he would have been 141 as well.
basically the 800 has gone no where in 40 years.
no where.
What do you think Coe’s line of fit was at his peak? Trying….trying….so Ovett has 1:41 and obviously you said Ryun had 1:39…great to see you here of course.
the formula for 141 is 45mid-high 400m with aerobic ability in an ok race.
Which is 140 and 139 in the perfect, race, peak, and drafting, something which has never happened.
ovett and coe had the same kind of basic speed,
ovett ran too much distance and cross to have a shot at the 45high 46 low 400m,
if he and coe decided to become 400m runners exclusively you have 44high 45 low for both of them.
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8tc wrote:
Hosoer wrote:
Please provide proof of this. This is a story told by fools. Drivel as he would say.
He died in 2018 or 2019. Even his website jundo.co.uk is long gone.
this is eldrick of track and field news from 2005 to 2014.
he called BS on my first post ever, where i wrote john walker running 2400m in 61 seconds per 400m, and he was coming off build up. steve machoney paced to 800m.
he was a strange annoying but you had to love his passion and his calculatior was just massaging data from past performances, and the numbers went a bit screwey and the end points, none the less, the formulas produced a lot of correct numbers as time went on.
his favorite was jim ryan and the 139 800m, which is super speculative, and fringe.
with that said, the guys that actually competed against ryun, and came just after, thought ryan was other worldly, and was crushed at the end of the day with killer inter intervals,
myself, i have ryun at 142 in his better shape in the right race today easily.
and leave it at that.
RIP to the doctor.
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longjack wrote:
8tc wrote:
He died in 2018 or 2019. Even his website jundo.co.uk is long gone.
this is eldrick of track and field news from 2005 to 2014.
he called BS on my first post ever, where i wrote john walker running 2400m in 61 seconds per 400m, and he was coming off build up. steve machoney paced to 800m.
he was a strange annoying but you had to love his passion and his calculatior was just massaging data from past performances, and the numbers went a bit screwey and the end points, none the less, the formulas produced a lot of correct numbers as time went on.
his favorite was jim ryan and the 139 800m, which is super speculative, and fringe.
with that said, the guys that actually competed against ryun, and came just after, thought ryan was other worldly, and was crushed at the end of the day with killer inter intervals,
myself, i have ryun at 142 in his better shape in the right race today easily.
and leave it at that.
RIP to the doctor.
What makes you think you are deceased? I don’t understand the games being played here.
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You are not Ventolin. You are not doing math conversions, factoring temperature, running on outside of lane one versus running on inside of lane one. I know they way Ventolin set up his math equations. You are not him.
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Salvitore Stitchmo wrote:
longjack wrote:
with all coe's records, that pacing is abysmal
rudisha's 140 had no drafting.
and kipkiter, he never ran a perfect one either at peak.
and ovett, had he focused on 800 and not focused on cross country and the mile, he would have been 141 as well.
basically the 800 has gone no where in 40 years.
no where.
I think what is so interesting about the event and the world record is beginning to really understand how fine the line is and how little margin for error there is when trying to run the perfect race. And I know this exists in all events but the 800m just seems different because there is an element of pace management involved but at the same time it's pace management at basically the anaerobic threshold limit which means any portion of the race (even say 150m of it) run inefficiently massively compromises you.
The concept of pacemaking in the 800m is an interesting one - especially when you start getting into sub 1.42 running. We roughly understand the benefits of pacemaking right - a energy saving due to some form of drafting and some kind of mental effect of being able to "watch a shoulder" for some portion of a race - though obviously in the 800m, being the shortest distance that has pacemakers, the question is how much is that benefit worth? Especially going back to my earlier point about how fine that line is with pace judgement and you start to understand that a pacemaker would basically have to be able to run 5-600m at splits perfectly tailored to the athletes physiology in order to really see what guys can run.
The best case in point is Kipketer in 97 - 1.41.24 in Zurich at an evening meet with absolutely perfect conditions, except the pacemaking - while impressive - was actually bad, with Tengelei splitting around 23.5 at 200m and 48.10 at the bell with Kipketer right on him (so maybe 48.3ht). 11 days laters at an afternoon meet in Koln with some breeze in the stadium, Kiptoo hits 49.00 with Kipketer right on him (maybe 49.2ht) and of course runs marginally faster than he did in Zurich. There is no doubt the pacing cost him there - had the splits been 48.6 for Tangui and 48.8 for Kipketer it's very plausible the WR could have been in the 1.40.8X range before Rudisha even laced up his first pair of spikes.
Rudisha in London is the interesting one for me - no he didn't have a pacemaker but he had a number of things in his favor. 1) Incentive/Motivation - the Olympic final which there of course is no greater incentive or motivation in the sport. 2) Perfect conditions - as close to no wind as possible and an optimum temperature (around 20 degrees celsius) and 3) Rudisha was able to completely dictate the pace and run it exactly as he wanted to. There was not a segment of the race he didn't control or feel "obliged" to alter based on someone running in front of him. No 200m split is stupid - 24.3 at 200m, 49.28 at the bell (24.9), 1.14.30 at 600m (25.0) and 26.5 to close.
So of course it's interesting. Put a pacemaker in London and there is a benefit for Rudisha of some drafting for maybe 500m but on a still night this is minimized. Possibly a mental/focus benefit but with an Olympic title on the line this is also minimized. On the flip side he can judge his pace perfectly and never has to temper or cut his stride worrying about clipping someone in front.
I honestly believe that in these upper human limit 800m races (under 1.42) the race is so short the net benefit is greater without a pacemaker than with. For the the net benefit to be greater with a pacemaker they would have to in essence almost be a clone of the athlete and so incredibly in tune with the pace, down to half second increments per 200m. I just don't think that's possible or plausible.
I think Coe without Konchellah in his way in Firenze runs 1.41.3X. I think Kipketer without Tengelei in Zurich runs 1.40.8X. I think (and this is no respect to Rudisha he's the greatest ever) Rudishas WR from London is not bettered with a pacemaker (seriously go watch some races with his "preferred" pacemaker just running idiotic 450m "jobs" where he gets out 6-7m ahead of Rudisha and actually slows down so Rudisha can get to him before dropping out - that's not pacemaking).
The one thing I would disagree with you here on is that as much as I love Ovett (my favorite miler ever), there is simply no way he would ever sniff running under 1.42 - he just wasn't that athlete. I think he could have run 3.28.8 at his prime - but not in the 41's :)
Agree re Ovett. Guys who run 28:16 for 10k on the roads (when the official best at that point was 28:00) as did Ovett, don't run 1:41 for 800m. While his speed was excellent, it was his acceleration that was devastating over 1500m/mile, and that made him effective in a slow 800m (like the Moscow final). I wouldn't be surprised if he might have even better at 3000m had that been an Olympic/World Championship event.
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600yd/600m man wrote:
You are not Ventolin. You are not doing math conversions, factoring temperature, running on outside of lane one versus running on inside of lane one. I know they way Ventolin set up his math equations. You are not him.
He says he is not Ventolin. He really does appear to be Ventolin hiding in plain sight but trying to avoid being exposed. Anyway you may have misunderstood him. He never said he was Ventolin.
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Eldrick/Ventolin/Calculator is not dead. He came back for a one off post last year as Jundo Mack.
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Hosoer wrote:
8tc wrote:
He died in 2018 or 2019. Even his website jundo.co.uk is long gone.
That means nothing. Please provide proof.
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/60630/?name=Ajay_Dosaj
2018
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I don't think it is underrated, Coe Performances are well known among runners. In my opinion he is the greatest middle distance runner of all Times. Outstanding Performances. The 1000m time of 2.12min is the best one. Total strengt!! His training was the best!
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