ko ko wrote:
How about Cain or Effraimson or Decker?
I'll give you Decker. Cain at age 20 was running 4:10 at 1500 per WA, granted at 18 she was faster. I don't see a time for 3000 or 5000. Effraimson at 20 was a touch faster at 1500 but no 3000 or 5000. They were all faster than Tuohy at 800, a race she has not run since hs.
Semihaze tries whatever angle makes Tuohy look good. She pretty much stated that Tuohy is faster than all Americans at a younger age which is not close to being true. Semihaze has no background and had admitted ad much which makes it hard to listen to her claim to be an expert on progression or any running related topic.
ko ko wrote:
Semihaze tries whatever angle makes Tuohy look good. She pretty much stated that Tuohy is faster than all Americans at a younger age which is not close to being true. Semihaze has no background and had admitted ad much which makes it hard to listen to her claim to be an expert on progression or any running related topic.
I can agree Semi is sometimes loose with "facts", biased toward one, and only one runner
astro wrote:
The sport is what it is. Between being appropriately cynical and realistic on the one hand and being hopelessly naive on the other, I will go with the former. The refusal to admit the problem has killed the sport. The see no evil approach just does not work. You literally cannot admit reality, so you think this is not an absurd and invidious comparison. You actually think Koko ran 14:20 clean and that it was natural ability? Come off it.
Come to think of it, when is that last time a top European distance runner was caught? Are they even trying anymore? You talk about suspecting everything. Let's play that game. How about another top female runner, Nadia Battocletti. I remember that name from when Chmiel beat her at the Great Edinburgh race in 2018. Anyway she was a solid junior runner when suddenly in 2021, just in time for the Olympics, her 5000m dramatically dropped from the 15:40 to sub 15 in a matter of months and she got 7th in the Olympic final. Such a radical pr drop would be suspicious by itself, but then you find out that she is coached by her father, who was banned for doping (nandrolone) in 1999 right after winning the European cross country championship. Not to mention the prevalence of doping in Italian athletics (Lamont Jacobs anyone?).
So if I ask a question about that, despite it being so obvious, is that "questioning everything", being cynical, being incredulous, or is that cold, plain reality? The fact that no one did says it all.
The pro game is what it is. As long as it stays in its own lane, fine. I still follow cycling, albeit with eyes wide open. But don't compare a college athlete to this circus.
Your eyes aren't open. Don't kid yourself. You aren't anti doping. How can you be if you don't understand what natural ability is?
Hahahahhaha you are really desperate funny!! NONE of the runners you mentioned are competing now .. pretty sure i read somewhere that decker was doping or was that someone named slaney .. clearly i dont know them coz they are old and dont give a fck coz they are irrelevant and will never toe the line today
your toxic trait is never letting go of your past idols whos irrelevant to the running world now.. you think they are the best.. they arent now but they were then ... but then today is now and not then ... so help yourself and accept the fact that youre living in 2022 and the one who wins championships and dominating at her agegroup is named katelyn tuohy
FastTuohy wrote:
I can agree Semi is sometimes loose with "facts", biased toward one, and only one runner
it also helps that i dont know any other whos older than 20 years old.. unless they are in the ncaa or a fast pro 😂😂😂 when ppl say names, i literally laugh coz i dont know who they are
coachjim999 wrote:
I would love to see these two race. Who would win? This would be one of the best competitions for women distance right now.
same goes to most young runners out there.. only letsrun cares about decker and other old runners... i literally dont know her but granpas keep bringing her up.. she must be their crush or sumlol
Cain was faster than Tuohy in HS and she flamed out at 21. What makes you think Tuohy would be different?
Decker was world class while in high school. Tuohy is at her prime age and is not world class.
zvxczxcv wrote:
No, none of those things was near the level of 14:26 with no pacers and no comp, or 8:20 or 3:58. Euros on the women's side are weak.
The half marathon actually was on a similar level. But of course this is confounded by supershoes and accordingly adjusted road race points. Like the 8:20 it is the fastest time ever run by someone not from Africa (or China in case of 3000m). I doubt that Koko will ever run as fast again in the 1500/3000m but she will improve in 5k and longer.
As for suspicions, of course they are unavoidable. (I think Klosterhalfen's progression 2015-19 is more credible than many others, not mentioning names; again, look what the AR in the 5000m was 7 years ago... One also has to consider that there is far less to be gained by running fast for a teenager in Germany, nobody here cares about track in high school, there are no stipends for prestigious universities based on athletics etc. The punishment for being caught would be disproportionally negative (also for the club and coach) compared to the meagre gains from some sponsors. Of course, now on world class level, it's different.)
O'Sullivan was considered clean at her time and ran 8:21.64 in 1994. 2019 was before the last iteration of supershoes, but I'd guess 1.5 secs are a plausible benefit of 2019 track and shoes vs. 25 years before.
ko ko wrote:
Cain was faster than Tuohy in HS and she flamed out at 21. What makes you think Tuohy would be different?
trajectory until 20. Cain was best at 17 and stagnating/getting worse already at 19. In the case of Tuohy the last season was good enough to forget about the HS phenomenon she was. We will see if she hits a plateau in the next two years or keeps improving.
ko ko wrote:
Decker was world class while in high school. Tuohy is at her prime age and is not world class.
Tuohy is faster at 20 than almost all the recent US women who ran any of sub 31, 14:50, 8:35, 4:00 were at the age. Almost nobody not from Africa is world class in the 1500m or longer at 20. It's far more common in the 800m and sprints.
Yes she was. That is why people expect her to plateu. She ran faster than all of them at a younger age and the ones faster than Tuohy at younger ages all flamed out. It isn't hard to plot a bunch of elites and predict that Tuohy is sort of in the middle between the girls who were better but didn't improve and the ones (like Valby) who improved more from age 16 to age 20 who went on to become national class. Tuohy is likely to end up at 14:50 whie Valby is likely to end up at 14:30.
Toot the Tuohy Horn wrote:
Yes she was. That is why people expect her to plateu. She ran faster than all of them at a younger age and the ones faster than Tuohy at younger ages all flamed out. It isn't hard to plot a bunch of elites and predict that Tuohy is sort of in the middle between the girls who were better but didn't improve and the ones (like Valby) who improved more from age 16 to age 20 who went on to become national class. Tuohy is likely to end up at 14:50 whie Valby is likely to end up at 14:30.
All of these posts predicting flame outs for young athletes are directed at females. You never see these kind of 'predictions' posted about male athletes just because they were fast when younger. The benefit of the doubt is they will continue to improve. Tuohy has already made it through the period for flaming out and no one really knows what her ceiling is.
I was just reading the Sophia Gorriaran started running at age 4, Roisin Willis at 6! I guess they are next on your flame out / won't progress list.
I don't accord the same status to road times because the cheater shoes are demonstrably better than the old shoes. 1:05 might be worth 1:07 or 1:06 high, not comparable in my view to 14:20. Koko was also contending for world medals back then. I hope she gets back to that level. She has gotten some of the way back. Those were positive signs. I'm not going to accept any kind of claims that Germans have no incentive to dope, as if the country doesn't have a long tradition of doping. So, that kind of reasoning (Germans don't care about track, which is true on the junior level but irrelevant, and Germans proved how much they cared about international track in the amazing Euro Champs in Munich this year) means nothing to me.
Yes, tuohy is mentally and physically on a different level than cain was and is ya troll!
Valby’s problem is that she’s mentally weak!
Your keyboard warrior skills are word class that’s for sure!💩
zvxczxcv wrote:
I don't accord the same status to road times because the cheater shoes are demonstrably better than the old shoes. 1:05 might be worth 1:07 or 1:06 high, not comparable in my view to 14:20. Koko was also contending for world medals back then. I hope she gets back to that level. She has gotten some of the way back. Those were positive signs. I'm not going to accept any kind of claims that Germans have no incentive to dope, as if the country doesn't have a long tradition of doping. So, that kind of reasoning (Germans don't care about track, which is true on the junior level but irrelevant, and Germans proved how much they cared about international track in the amazing Euro Champs in Munich this year) means nothing to me.
I don't claim Germans don't use doping. But should they use doping with mid/distance runners they must do an absolutely incompetent job because years before and besides Klosterhalfen almost the only Germans touching world or even European medals were in a niche (steeplechase) or of African extraction. Compared to field events, even sprints, Germany is worse than many European countries in mid/distance running.
My main point (although I still think that what I said about junior track in the US vs. Germany is true) that I didn't make sufficiently clear, was how good Koko was years before NOP. She was among top European u20 in 2015 but not really sticking out. In 2016 she was by far the best in Europe in her age and top 3-5 in world u20 from 800m-10km. In 2017 she was 4th in the senior world lists in 1500m and 3000m, together with Tsegay and Gidey the best of her age. So anyone suspecting foul play would have to do so already 2017 at the latest, not 2019. She was also still very young (22 in 2019, a younger age than the Americans suddenly running faster than what used to be AR only a few years ago) and didn't become "unbeatable" like Farah or Hassan.
Blank231 wrote:
All of these posts predicting flame outs for young athletes are directed at females. You never see these kind of 'predictions' posted about male athletes just because they were fast when younger. The benefit of the doubt is they will continue to improve. Tuohy has already made it through the period for flaming out and no one really knows what her ceiling is.
It has happened far more frequent for women, that's why. Boys and men tend to improve rather steadily whereas there seems to be "sweet spot" that lead to lots of teenage women peaking in middle and sometimes long distances but then either stagnating or getting worse. There are plenty of cases beyond the most famous ones, like Cain. And it's probably worse in the US because there are high incentives to be very good in high school athletics but it's also frequent in countries with almost no gain in HS athletics.
