3:55 was not on cinders. It was on a synthetic track.
But no one is really arguing that Ryun belongs on Rushmore, are they? I think we’re all on the same page there. The argument against would be that in HS he was focused on the 800/mile and his relative XC weakness (but I think that’s more because XC wasn’t really given the same attention back then — I think he was undefeated in XC his last 2 years).
Regardless of the Ryun-lovers and Ryun-haters, however, this thread was more about Sahlman to me. I think Verzbicas and Sahlman are the two best overall distance runners we have seen — 3:59/8:29 & 3x XC NC, 3:58/8:33 (so far) + 14:06 NR and NC just isn’t matched by anyone. There are a dozen milers around as good as Sahlman and Verzbicas, but none of them could match them in the 3000+. There are some XC runners that could run with them (or maybe beat them, e.g. Ches and Ritz) but none of them could match them in the shorter stuff. Overall those two just have the best resumes. Kessler might’ve come close if not for COVID but we’ll never know.
Saying none of them can match Sahlman is a bit of stretch. If we put Colin in a race with German, Webb, Hobbs etc. I think he loses to all at this point. And I think he really good.
The nuances to this conversation are that a guy like Webb could’ve run 8:25 in HS, but could also run 47 & 1:47. So the 2 mile wasn’t really on his radar.
Hobbs jogged an 8:39 with a 25.0 last 200. But he was busy trying to make the Olympics.
The benefit the NP has is that every race they run is essentially a PR attempt. They want their names in the record books whereas other dudes just won races.
My rankings are based of what I think would happen in a race.
1. Webb 2. GF 3. Kessler 4. Nico 5. LV 6. Sahlman 7. Rupp 8. Hunter 9. Nelson 10. Centro
Kessler might’ve come close if not for COVID but we’ll never know.
Kessler was not a good XC runner. Considering how good of a track guy he was, he was actually a terrible XC runner. He ran a 14:51 at the Michigan State meet, 41 seconds off Ritz's record, and losing to Riley Hough, who was only a junior in the merger. (tbf Riley ran after him, and in a Ann-Arbor - Hartland dual meet Hobbs did win)
Then, at "nationals" (nsaf xc town meet of champions) Hobbs lost to Judson Greere, which is honestly quite disappointing, considering how close Hobbs was to Webb in the mile, and how much better Ritz was to Greere, the two guys they both lost nationals to.
3:55 was not on cinders. It was on a synthetic track.
But no one is really arguing that Ryun belongs on Rushmore, are they? I think we’re all on the same page there. The argument against would be that in HS he was focused on the 800/mile and his relative XC weakness (but I think that’s more because XC wasn’t really given the same attention back then — I think he was undefeated in XC his last 2 years).
Regardless of the Ryun-lovers and Ryun-haters, however, this thread was more about Sahlman to me. I think Verzbicas and Sahlman are the two best overall distance runners we have seen — 3:59/8:29 & 3x XC NC, 3:58/8:33 (so far) + 14:06 NR and NC just isn’t matched by anyone. There are a dozen milers around as good as Sahlman and Verzbicas, but none of them could match them in the 3000+. There are some XC runners that could run with them (or maybe beat them, e.g. Ches and Ritz) but none of them could match them in the shorter stuff. Overall those two just have the best resumes. Kessler might’ve come close if not for COVID but we’ll never know.
Saying none of them can match Sahlman is a bit of stretch. If we put Colin in a race with German, Webb, Hobbs etc. I think he loses to all at this point. And I think he really good.
The nuances to this conversation are that a guy like Webb could’ve run 8:25 in HS, but could also run 47 & 1:47. So the 2 mile wasn’t really on his radar.
Hobbs jogged an 8:39 with a 25.0 last 200. But he was busy trying to make the Olympics.
The benefit the NP has is that every race they run is essentially a PR attempt. They want their names in the record books whereas other dudes just won races.
My rankings are based of what I think would happen in a race.
1. Webb 2. GF 3. Kessler 4. Nico 5. LV 6. Sahlman 7. Rupp 8. Hunter 9. Nelson 10. Centro
I’m assuming you left the old guys off on purpose.
Sahlman has the best resume? Better than making the Olympic team and setting the American record and running the 4th fastest mile of all time up to that point?? Seriously???
Saying none of them can match Sahlman is a bit of stretch. If we put Colin in a race with German, Webb, Hobbs etc. I think he loses to all at this point. And I think he really good.
The nuances to this conversation are that a guy like Webb could’ve run 8:25 in HS, but could also run 47 & 1:47. So the 2 mile wasn’t really on his radar.
Hobbs jogged an 8:39 with a 25.0 last 200. But he was busy trying to make the Olympics.
The benefit the NP has is that every race they run is essentially a PR attempt. They want their names in the record books whereas other dudes just won races.
My rankings are based of what I think would happen in a race.
1. Webb 2. GF 3. Kessler 4. Nico 5. LV 6. Sahlman 7. Rupp 8. Hunter 9. Nelson 10. Centro
I’m assuming you left the old guys off on purpose.
Sahlman has the best resume? Better than making the Olympic team and setting the American record and running the 4th fastest mile of all time up to that point?? Seriously???
What do you expect when real history is slowly being fazed out.
Lindgren is so far above everyone else its not a joke. 8:40 2 mile on a 120 yard indoor track in his day + 13:40 cinder track + 4:04 as a jog fest. Nobody touched this guy unless it was on a WORLDWIDE stage.
Ritz, Vezbicas probably grab a spot up there with Rupp, Fernandez, Chapa, etc in the mix too. Unless Sahlaman has a monster outdoor season (Multiple High School records), he won't be in contention with these guys. A high schoo er would have to run 13:1X or 8:1x to be even comparable to Lindgren.
So Lindgren was slower than Sahlman but was still better? The 8:33.32 1600 Sahlman ran is equivalent to an 8:36.3 2 mile, 4 seconds faster and he was 6 seconds faster in the mile. And he is just starting his outdoor season. Watch as more national records fall. If he runs a 2 mile, that record will be gone. 3200 record he just crushed likely to go lower.
It is a joke to suggest you have to run 20 seconds faster than Lindgren to be as good as him. The record books do not have asterisks indicating one had super shoes or a faster track.
As good as Sahlman is, until he breaks some records, I wouldn’t include him in this discussion. It’s very possible he breaks the 2 mile record and even the 5k record if he goes for it. But I think most of us agree that although he’s one of the greatest American distance runners ever, Rupp is not even top ten HS all time. What would change my mind is if he somehow took his mile time down and scared Webb’s outdoor record this spring.
Jim Ryun is still in my eyes the GOAT. 2-10 spots are up for debate
Lindgren is so far above everyone else its not a joke. 8:40 2 mile on a 120 yard indoor track in his day + 13:40 cinder track + 4:04 as a jog fest. Nobody touched this guy unless it was on a WORLDWIDE stage.
Ritz, Vezbicas probably grab a spot up there with Rupp, Fernandez, Chapa, etc in the mix too. Unless Sahlaman has a monster outdoor season (Multiple High School records), he won't be in contention with these guys. A high schoo er would have to run 13:1X or 8:1x to be even comparable to Lindgren.
So Lindgren was slower than Sahlman but was still better? The 8:33.32 1600 Sahlman ran is equivalent to an 8:36.3 2 mile, 4 seconds faster and he was 6 seconds faster in the mile. And he is just starting his outdoor season. Watch as more national records fall. If he runs a 2 mile, that record will be gone. 3200 record he just crushed likely to go lower.
It is a joke to suggest you have to run 20 seconds faster than Lindgren to be as good as him. The record books do not have asterisks indicating one had super shoes or a faster track.
The debate comparing athletes of different eras seems hopeless to resolve.
Let me ask you a question. Jesse Owens had a best 100m time of 10.3. Is he an all time great, or should be considered a mediocre springer who would not even make the NCAA final today?
I say Owens is 2nd only to Bolt and you could argue he’s greater than Bolt.
I am perplexed that somebody would ever consider Sahlman to be approaching Lindgren or Ryun. Sahlman is just barely the goat of his own HS and his current team.
As good as Sahlman is, until he breaks some records, I wouldn’t include him in this discussion. It’s very possible he breaks the 2 mile record and even the 5k record if he goes for it. But I think most of us agree that although he’s one of the greatest American distance runners ever, Rupp is not even top ten HS all time. What would change my mind is if he somehow took his mile time down and scared Webb’s outdoor record this spring.
Jim Ryun is still in my eyes the GOAT. 2-10 spots are up for debate
Well, he did break the 5k record in XC (although I agree XC records are a bit silly). I do think he technically just broke the NSR for 3200 as well although obviously the Verzbicas time is faster en route. No doubt he could break Nico’s 3k record if he gave it a go considering what Lex did a few weeks ago.
I think he can break 3000, 2 mile, and 5000 if given the chance outdoor this year.
Lindgren is so far above everyone else its not a joke. 8:40 2 mile on a 120 yard indoor track in his day + 13:40 cinder track + 4:04 as a jog fest. Nobody touched this guy unless it was on a WORLDWIDE stage.
Ritz, Vezbicas probably grab a spot up there with Rupp, Fernandez, Chapa, etc in the mix too. Unless Sahlaman has a monster outdoor season (Multiple High School records), he won't be in contention with these guys. A high schoo er would have to run 13:1X or 8:1x to be even comparable to Lindgren.
So Lindgren was slower than Sahlman but was still better? The 8:33.32 1600 Sahlman ran is equivalent to an 8:36.3 2 mile, 4 seconds faster and he was 6 seconds faster in the mile. And he is just starting his outdoor season. Watch as more national records fall. If he runs a 2 mile, that record will be gone. 3200 record he just crushed likely to go lower.
It is a joke to suggest you have to run 20 seconds faster than Lindgren to be as good as him. The record books do not have asterisks indicating one had super shoes or a faster track.
Ryun and Lindgren both made Olympic teams as High Schoolers. Ryun as a junior.
Ryun ran 3:39 1500 as a junior. Which to me is still his best High School performance.
How many High School seniors have run faster than that.
I recommend you read the Jim Ryun Story it details everything he did, how he competed against the best in the World at that time and beat them.
As good as all these other runners are (were) in High School, none took on the best in the world and beat them while in High School. Jim Ryun did.
Ryun was getting his times while running tactical races to win. There were no pacers. I truly believe he would have run sub 3:52 in High School if he would have had someone rabbiting a race for him, like Webb had.
Sahlman still had probably 4 full months of HS running (and yes I count the summer after graduation as HS running as everyone should), so let's put a pin in his discussion at this point because there is so much to be done on his part. A few other thoughts below.
- Some people were listing steeple and 10k times for HS kids. Yes those are records but they are so rarely run it is almost impossible to have them be worth anything in an all time ranking situation. Lindgren being competitive internationally is the exception here since that is competition instead of times.
- while fernandez times were incredible in track, if you are factoring in xc it has to be mentioned that he was 3rd at FL that year behind Mike fout and Chris derrick (who was just as young for his grade as fernandez fwiw).
- Kessler probably had the potential to be in conversation for track GOAT, but (fairly) focused solely on 1500 to try and make Olympics at the expense of PR chasing in other events.
- Guys like Lukas deserve credit for not just taking a few big shots a year, but lining up often and getting after it every time.
- Everyone rightly talks about Lindgren and Ryun competing on the senior international stage as HS kids, but had Webb tried for worlds in 01 (I believe he shut it down to prep for Michigan) he would have had a good chance to make the team.
1-2 are settled. The rest depend on what you emphasize (range, XC, dominance, and so forth).
There's too much time comparison between eras going on. Sahlman has to run faster because he is running in an era where faster times are occurring due to a variety of factors (shoes, competition, pacing, traveling, and so forth). Just as no one considers Webb superior to Ryun even though he ran 2 seconds faster in the mile in high school. Or Kessler superior to Webb. It's all relative.
Sahlman still had probably 4 full months of HS running (and yes I count the summer after graduation as HS running as everyone should), so let's put a pin in his discussion at this point because there is so much to be done on his part. A few other thoughts below.
- Some people were listing steeple and 10k times for HS kids. Yes those are records but they are so rarely run it is almost impossible to have them be worth anything in an all time ranking situation. Lindgren being competitive internationally is the exception here since that is competition instead of times.
- while fernandez times were incredible in track, if you are factoring in xc it has to be mentioned that he was 3rd at FL that year behind Mike fout and Chris derrick (who was just as young for his grade as fernandez fwiw).
- Kessler probably had the potential to be in conversation for track GOAT, but (fairly) focused solely on 1500 to try and make Olympics at the expense of PR chasing in other events.
- Guys like Lukas deserve credit for not just taking a few big shots a year, but lining up often and getting after it every time.
- Everyone rightly talks about Lindgren and Ryun competing on the senior international stage as HS kids, but had Webb tried for worlds in 01 (I believe he shut it down to prep for Michigan) he would have had a good chance to make the team.
Umm .. Webb ran USATF 1500m in 3:38.50 and finished in 5th place.
Lindgren should be either #1 or #2 to Ryun, no one else. Places 3-4 are a toss-up between Webb, Ritz, Verzbicas, Fisher, Hunter, and Sahlman
I’m old, so recency bias is not a problem for me! Honestly, after Ryun the rest on this list are just pretenders. It’s a Rushmore of 1. When Ryun was in HS he was one of the top 5 milers in the world. He beat Snell head to head for heaven’s sake. That’s like Sahlman lining up and beating Jakob or Tim. How can you compare Sahlman, or any off them, with that level of performance?
I’m old, so recency bias is not a problem for me! Honestly, after Ryun the rest on this list are just pretenders. It’s a Rushmore of 1. When Ryun was in HS he was one of the top 5 milers in the world. He beat Snell head to head for heaven’s sake. That’s like Sahlman lining up and beating Jakob or Tim. How can you compare Sahlman, or any off them, with that level of performance?
This, and what shoes is Sahlman wearing?
Sahlman could not wear spikes for XC in calif. since they are not allowed. Otherwise just flats probably like Nike Zoom Victory XC 5.
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