Whonose wrote:
carmine9 wrote:
Let me know when Mu runs that world class mile.
Ain't gonna happen
I never argued that Mu would run a world class mile. Maybe reading comprehension is not your strength.
What's the name of this thread?
Whonose wrote:
carmine9 wrote:
Let me know when Mu runs that world class mile.
Ain't gonna happen
I never argued that Mu would run a world class mile. Maybe reading comprehension is not your strength.
What's the name of this thread?
carmine9 wrote:
Whonose wrote:
I never argued that Mu would run a world class mile. Maybe reading comprehension is not your strength.
What's the name of this thread?
So what? You started telling lies about Caster Semenya and I exposed your lies. Now you want to change the subject. When you are dealing with a superior you better tread carefully.
Whonose wrote:
carmine9 wrote:
What's the name of this thread?
So what? You started telling lies about Caster Semenya and I exposed your lies. Now you want to change the subject. When you are dealing with a superior you better tread carefully.
Pretty sure the name of the thread is the subject, genius
carmine9 wrote:
Whonose wrote:
So what? You started telling lies about Caster Semenya and I exposed your lies. Now you want to change the subject. When you are dealing with a superior you better tread carefully.
Pretty sure the name of the thread is the subject, genius
Ok but our disagreement stemmed from your lies about Semenya. I took no position on Athing Mu’s ability to run a great 1500m and you, possessing little discernment and void of intellectual honesty, began arguing about Mu as if I had taken a position. I am not sure what she can do but I am sure what Semenya did and that then you lied about it.
Whonose wrote:
carmine9 wrote:
Pretty sure the name of the thread is the subject, genius
Ok but our disagreement stemmed from your lies about Semenya. I took no position on Athing Mu’s ability to run a great 1500m and you, possessing little discernment and void of intellectual honesty, began arguing about Mu as if I had taken a position. I am not sure what she can do but I am sure what Semenya did and that then you lied about it.
I am curious, what "lies" were those?
If you cannot read then I am done here. Anyone can see you lied about Semenya. Your game is old and stale. Move on to more lies. I really abhor people like you whose ignorance is only matched by a propensity for deception.
Whonose wrote:
If you cannot read then I am done here. Anyone can see you lied about Semenya. Your game is old and stale. Move on to more lies. I really abhor people like you whose ignorance is only matched by a propensity for deception.
You accuse me of telling lies.
But you cannot say what they were?
I think it is safe to conclude I told no lies
Doubtful. Why didn’t Jeremy Wariner break the AR in the 800?
The same reason that Kate Grace didn't break the 1500 AR.
Man, this thread is a frustrating read.
For one, claiming Semenya wasn’t “world class” at 1500 when she won a World Championship bronze at that distance is preposterous. Her 49.62 400 PB would have been good for bronze at the Rio Olympics—she was world class at both distances. However, I don’t think you can necessarily make a fair comparison with Mu for obvious physiological reasons.
Citing the teenage 1500 PBs of various fast 1500 runners as evidence that Mu, with a similar 1500 PB, is capable of becoming a top 1500 runner in the future is ignoring a major confounding variable: none of those women were 49”/1:55 runners! Athletes have individual skillsets and physical limitations, and the same traits that make someone elite at one distance will limit their potential at a longer or shorter one.
One former great with a similar skillset to Mu is Ana Fidelia Quirot of Cuba. Quirot ran 49.2h/1:22.6/1:54.4/2:33.1/4:13.1 PBs—clearly she was best in the 600-800 range, and Mu is the same. Another woman who came to my mind is former US record-holder at 800, Jearl Miles-Clark; Clark had less strength than Mu, recording lifetime bests of 49.4/1:56.4 and only 4:31.4 for 1500.
Bad Wigins actually provided some sense when he mentioned that Kazankina is the only woman to ever run 1:55.05 or faster and sub-3:55; but of course, Kazankina was not a world class 400 runner, but an 800-3k+ type like Ovett or Cram—or think of her as Shelby Houlihan with a little less mileage and training knowledge, but far less scrutiny on her drug regimen. There’s no comparing Mu and Kazankina, even if their current 800 PBs are very close.
The men who have similar skillsets as Mu—Rudisha, Emmanuel Korir, Amos, Saruni—have never recorded faster than 3:44 for 1500 (and it sounds as if Juantorena fell in that range as well).
I can imagine Mu running 4:05ish after a couple years of pro training, but I wouldn’t bet on it. I would bet confidently that she will never be capable of making the 1500 final at a global championship.
shes a class above the rest wrote:
There, I said it.
Ok congratulations.
big timer wrote:
Correct. She has not run a fast 1500 because she is lazy. She could if she trained for it but she has a sprinter mentality of doing the least work possible. Her accomplishments have all come from pure talent. If she had a mentality like Tuohy, she would have run sub 4 already.
BS
'Sprinter mentality' means doing what the coach specifies, which is often full recovery between reps. Sprint training is very technically advanced and you clearly do not understand.
Didn't know this thread would cause such a stir. Happy Friday everyone.
Whonose wrote:
carmine9 wrote:
Highly doubtful.
World class 400m runner and #1 in the world in 800m.
Nobody with those credentials has ever been a top miler.
Closes to it was Juantorena. I cannot locate the data but I think he ran around a 3:40 1500m near the end of his career.
Apparently you never heard of Caster Semenya.
lol.
Whonose wrote:
MatthewXCountry wrote:
Semenya is good at 1500m, sure, but only 3:59.92 and 49,XX forn 400after several attempts. Definitely not Olympic medalist caliber, but an elite female runner
The point is she was world class from 400m through the mile. She ran 49.62 and 3:59 in the same season. This made her a potential Olympic champion at 1500m. This would be like a guy who could run about roughly 3:33 and 46. The guy would be a potential Olympic champion at 1500m.
A 3:59.92 is more like a man running 3:35. It's a good time, and while the women's field is less deep than the men's field, it's just an elite time these days nothing more.
MatthewXCountry wrote:
Whonose wrote:
The point is she was world class from 400m through the mile. She ran 49.62 and 3:59 in the same season. This made her a potential Olympic champion at 1500m. This would be like a guy who could run about roughly 3:33 and 46. The guy would be a potential Olympic champion at 1500m.
A 3:59.92 is more like a man running 3:35. It's a good time, and while the women's field is less deep than the men's field, it's just an elite time these days nothing more.
Don’t be obtuse. A world championship bronze medalist is world class.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iJjeKxN8IGY&t=553sJohn Wesley Harding wrote:
Man, this thread is a frustrating read.
For one, claiming Semenya wasn’t “world class” at 1500 when she won a World Championship bronze at that distance is preposterous. Her 49.62 400 PB would have been good for bronze at the Rio Olympics—she was world class at both distances. However, I don’t think you can necessarily make a fair comparison with Mu for obvious physiological reasons.
Citing the teenage 1500 PBs of various fast 1500 runners as evidence that Mu, with a similar 1500 PB, is capable of becoming a top 1500 runner in the future is ignoring a major confounding variable: none of those women were 49”/1:55 runners! Athletes have individual skillsets and physical limitations, and the same traits that make someone elite at one distance will limit their potential at a longer or shorter one.
One former great with a similar skillset to Mu is Ana Fidelia Quirot of Cuba. Quirot ran 49.2h/1:22.6/1:54.4/2:33.1/4:13.1 PBs—clearly she was best in the 600-800 range, and Mu is the same. Another woman who came to my mind is former US record-holder at 800, Jearl Miles-Clark; Clark had less strength than Mu, recording lifetime bests of 49.4/1:56.4 and only 4:31.4 for 1500.
Bad Wigins actually provided some sense when he mentioned that Kazankina is the only woman to ever run 1:55.05 or faster and sub-3:55; but of course, Kazankina was not a world class 400 runner, but an 800-3k+ type like Ovett or Cram—or think of her as Shelby Houlihan with a little less mileage and training knowledge, but far less scrutiny on her drug regimen. There’s no comparing Mu and Kazankina, even if their current 800 PBs are very close.
The men who have similar skillsets as Mu—Rudisha, Emmanuel Korir, Amos, Saruni—have never recorded faster than 3:44 for 1500 (and it sounds as if Juantorena fell in that range as well).
I can imagine Mu running 4:05ish after a couple years of pro training, but I wouldn’t bet on it. I would bet confidently that she will never be capable of making the 1500 final at a global championship.
Finally - some rationality.
Thank you JWH for injecting some needed sanity into this thread. That WC Final was interesting as Caster appeared to go through 800m in almost 2:19 yet she still ran 4:02. She sure looked like someone who could run 3:55ish in an ideal race.
carmine9 wrote:
Semenya is not a world class 400m runner. Nor miler for that matter. Based on her best times.
Nor is she without male hormones.
If she had to compete as a male, she would be mediocre.
Otherwise great point
We talked extensively about this thread on the Friday 15 SC podcast today. Join the SC today to get access to bonus podcasts - we had3 extra podcasts this week.
I actually cited a post by Carmine saying no one is world class at 400 and 1500. For the most part that's true, but you are wrong about Semenya.
2017 Worlds - she won bronze in the 1500. End of argument. Do you realize she beat a fresh Hassan in that race? She's also run 49.62 for 400.
Women
1500m 7 August
1 Faith Kipyegon KEN 10 Jan 94 4:02.59 « »
2 Jenny Simpson USA 23 Aug 86 4:02.76 « »
3 Caster Semenya RSA 7 Jan 91 4:02.90 « »
4 Laura Muir GBR 9 May 93 4:02.97 « »
5 Sifan Hassan NED 1 Jan 93 4:03.34 « »
6 Laura Weightman GBR 1 Jul 91 4:04.11 « »
7 Angelika Cichocka POL 15 Mar 88 4:04.16 « »
8 Rababe Arafi MAR 12 Jan 91 4:04.35 « »
9 Meraf Bahta SWE 24 Jun 89 4:04.76 « »
10 Malika Akkaoui MAR 25 Dec 87 4:05.87 « »
11 Hanna Klein GER 6 Apr 93 4:06.22 « »
12 Genzebe Dibaba ETH 8 Feb 91 4:06.72 « »
I also talked extensively about the following post.
Jagged Jag wrote:
Schweizer's PR at 19 was 4:17. Mu's was 4:16.
Purrier's PR at 19 was 4:18. Mu's was 4:16.
Simpson's PR at 19 was 4:32. Mu's was 4:16.
Grace's PR at 19 was 4:32. Mu's was 4:16.
Houlihan's PR at 19 was 4:22. Mu's was 4:16.
Tell me again why she can't break the American record.
Well, she is better than the all-time best Americans at the same age. Seem like that means something. Ans she did it on 30 MPW as opposed to 75. Imagine what she would do at 50MPW.
I love that you unlike the OP provided a reason as to why it could be true. I think there are two potential flaws to it however.
1) SOmem people are just precocious/early devlopers. If you are super at 18, that doesn't mean you'll be super at 30. Look at Alan Webb.
2)The idea of "she did it on 30 mpw" imagine what she could on 75 isn't 100% true.
For most distance runners, yes, that's true. But for 400/800 types - not necessarily.
I had a guy at Cornell that was a 151 in HS on like 25 mpw. We bumped him up to 40, he ran 157 freshan year. I kind of came to the conclusion - we can do sprint training and you can run 151-153. If we do more, you run slower. Now it's possible if we stuck with it for years, he'd eventually be able to handle it but there were no guarantees. I left before he graduated and he ended up not running senior year.
Jagged Jag wrote:
Schweizer's PR at 19 was 4:17. Mu's was 4:16.
Purrier's PR at 19 was 4:18. Mu's was 4:16.
Simpson's PR at 19 was 4:32. Mu's was 4:16.
Grace's PR at 19 was 4:32. Mu's was 4:16.
Houlihan's PR at 19 was 4:22. Mu's was 4:16.
Tell me again why she can't break the American record.
She’s already the world’s best in 800 — age no bar — but the other more senior names are American Class that is comfortably below World Class, plus Mu only beats their teen time, not their current time, so why would she even bother? She’s out for the world, not just America.