My conversation with you led to me to discover that road racing scores have been updated. Lol.
My conversation with you led to me to discover that road racing scores have been updated. Lol.
douglas burke wrote:
I hope not Wheating ran 3:30.94 A few weeks after he ran NCAA's and never ran under 3:34.00 again, He was a One Hit Wonder, I hope Cole Hocker is more like Steve Scott, Lots of years of being one of the best.
He was ranked top 10 in the World 11 Times by Track and Field news
douglas burke wrote:
douglas burke wrote:
I hope not Wheating ran 3:30.94 A few weeks after he ran NCAA's and never ran under 3:34.00 again, He was a One Hit Wonder, I hope Cole Hocker is more like Steve Scott, Lots of years of being one of the best.
He was ranked top 10 in the World 11 Times by Track and Field news
10 Consecutive years and 11 in 12 Years
LarsL9 wrote:
High hopes wrote:
They are the achievements of a good pro, nothing more. Track and field is an international sport and other than his appearance in the Olympic final, none of his other achievements would even be recognized by fans around the world. As someone else said, Athing Mu has achieved greatness, she's the hero you're looking for
This. People need to realize that NCAA means jack sh*t for international track and field.
Not so fast. We recognise the importance of NCAAs. Several of our best athletes have been through the NCAA system, including the 1500m bronze medalist. NCAA isn't atop the totem pole, but it remains relevant to the European community.
He's already surpassed Wheating by making an Olympic final, something Wheating never accomplished in his entire career.
High hopes wrote:
dumbassMF wrote:
Hicham EL GUERROUJ dropped nearly 3 seconds from 1997 to 1998 to set the WR.
Assuming that Hocker is equally talented it might be possible.
Yeah, maybe he'll find the same "training manual" as El G, too
Yeah, I'd love to see him really roll the dice and push the doping envelope (at least until he has to use a couple whereabouts failures).
Yeah pshhh let's not get crazy about him beating Jake heyward, Jake wightman, Ollie hoare, Stewart Mcsweyn, or any other world class athlete 😉
OozmaKappa wrote:
My conversation with you led to me to discover that road racing scores have been updated. Lol.
interesting. just took a look. something like 15 points?
high school xc coach wrote:
OozmaKappa wrote:
My conversation with you led to me to discover that road racing scores have been updated. Lol.
interesting. just took a look. something like 15 points?
11 points for Kiplimo, 13 points for Kipchoge, and 45 points for Gidey.
douglas burke wrote:
I hope not Wheating ran 3:30.94 A few weeks after he ran NCAA's and never ran under 3:34.00 again, He was a One Hit Wonder, I hope Cole Hocker is more like Steve Scott, Lots of years of being one of the best.
This. I don't know why people start threads like this.
Hocker and Kessler are two of the most talented 10 milers we've ever had. Why would we even play with whether or not they will flame out? Willing to enjoy their talent as long as it lasts!
Let's just say no to putting a hex on our best dudes early or claiming they've peaked, shall we? A lot of people run their best race without realizing it, but there have been a lot of success stories from talented runners that have stuck with it and come out of injury or coaching related downturns -- Molly Seidel and Elise Cranny come to mind as two major ones that showed amazing talent early, faded a bit at times, and came back to really impress.
OozmaKappa wrote:
So the most competitive womens running events are: 10000m, 100m, 400mH, 200m, 1500m 400m, 5000m
The least competitive are:
800m, 100mH, and steeple
A serious flaw with the Hungarian tables is that the datasets still reflect performance standards of the steroid era, which is a big limitation to making statements about the relative quality of events. A built-in PED bias is inherent to the tables.
Another poster mentioned the fact that Athing Mu is not simply a good teenager winning at a weak time in the event; she is the fastest non-DSD, non-Eastern Bloc athlete of all time besides Pamela Jelimo. And yet her performances are scored relatively low. This is significant to consider. Of all track events, if you look at the middle distances, these are the events whose all time lists are still the most dominated by athletes of the 80s.
You'll notice of the these "more competitive" events, they are the events where the PED-era performances are most closely matched or even exceeded. Make of that what you will. The 100mH should count in this, but the past season or 2 has a seen a bit of a back-slide compared to the performances of the few year prior. The steeple is interesting because the datasets are far more limited; they don't reflect the data of steroid era at all, because it didn't exist at that time.
That’s my point. Is the women’s 800 weak or are the scoring tables off? I ask this earnestly, what methodology/formula is used for the tables? I’m skeptical of labeling the women’s 800 historically weak and am more inclined to think a statistical anomaly is at play. If not the latter, is this just bad luck or is there some biological reason woman are bad at the 800? Steeple is weak because the best runners don’t do it. SC is a JV race, but not true of the 800.
OozmaKappa wrote:
High hopes wrote:
Assuming this isn't just a troll, it's like you have no idea of the history of the event. The only people who have run faster than Mu are DSD athletes, known drug cheats, and Pamela Jelimo. That 1:53 record is as ridiculous as Flo-Jo's 10:49. Mu is an awesome talent and had to beat another 1:55 athlete to win gold. She's not a legend yet but she looks likely to be the most dominant athlete in any track event for the next 3-5 years
And yet Mu's 800m PR, the leading time for 2021, is only worth 1253 points on the scoring tables. If the rest of the all time top 10 is illegitimate, then that just proves my point further because it demonstrates that, not only is the womens 800m weak right now, it's also weak hisorically.
The leading marks for the 2021 season on the womens side for nearly all the running events are rated above 1270 points, and these events' top 3s are mostly around there as well. The exceptions are the 100mh, 3000mSC, 5000m, and 800m. But you can cross out the 5000m from that list since we know for a fact Hassan is much better than a 1250 based on her recent 10000m pr.
So the most competitive womens running events are: 10000m, 100m, 400mH, 200m, 1500m 400m, 5000m
The least competitive are:
800m, 100mH, and steeple
What Mu can do in the future is irrelevant to this discussion. I'm just telling it like it is. She won gold against a weak field in a historically weak event. Out of the 10 running events, 7 are more competitive than the 800m. A runner of Mu's caliber wouldnt have won Gold in 7 out of the 10 running events, and wouldnt have even medaled in 5 of the 10.
You do know that the WA scoring tables are calculated based on existing performances, right? So that means that scores for the women's 800m are heavily distorted by those performances by DSD and drugged up athletes. Mu's times, and those of other women today, would score higher if those illegitimate times were set aside. Just one more reason why the WA scoring system should be taken with a pinch of salt
Wise Old Man wrote:
That’s my point. Is the women’s 800 weak or are the scoring tables off? I ask this earnestly, what methodology/formula is used for the tables? I’m skeptical of labeling the women’s 800 historically weak and am more inclined to think a statistical anomaly is at play. If not the latter, is this just bad luck or is there some biological reason woman are bad at the 800? Steeple is weak because the best runners don’t do it. SC is a JV race, but not true of the 800.
The steeple is similar to the 800m in that it's anchor score - Chepkoech's WR of 8:44 - is probably not legit. It's so far beyond what other women have managed that it's out of sight. Even Jebet's 8:52 is suspect given her EPO positive. In reality, steeple scores should be anchored to Jeruto's 8:53 which would make the event look a lot stronger on the scoring tables
Joe+Mama wrote:
Yeah pshhh let's not get crazy about him beating Jake heyward, Jake wightman, Ollie hoare, Stewart Mcsweyn, or any other world class athlete 😉
Funny you say that. Hocker already placed higher in the olympics than all four of them.
You need to get a lesson in sarcasm from the foreign guy Fouad who explains it to Peter in family guy.
High hopes wrote:
Wise Old Man wrote:
That’s my point. Is the women’s 800 weak or are the scoring tables off? I ask this earnestly, what methodology/formula is used for the tables? I’m skeptical of labeling the women’s 800 historically weak and am more inclined to think a statistical anomaly is at play. If not the latter, is this just bad luck or is there some biological reason woman are bad at the 800? Steeple is weak because the best runners don’t do it. SC is a JV race, but not true of the 800.
The steeple is similar to the 800m in that it's anchor score - Chepkoech's WR of 8:44 - is probably not legit. It's so far beyond what other women have managed that it's out of sight. Even Jebet's 8:52 is suspect given her EPO positive. In reality, steeple scores should be anchored to Jeruto's 8:53 which would make the event look a lot stronger on the scoring tables
i think you are right. and jeruto's time is similarly good to the men's steeplechase record just off a quick glance, comparing times versus flat 3000 records.
of course, the women with the low barriers is a bit of a different event
If you're going to try to quantify "great" in track and field, I think holding or having held a world record and/or winning an Olympic or World medal are fair qualifications, making Mu and Jacob great, but not Hocker...yet.
How many American middle distance runners in history can say they were able to count on one hand the amount of athletes that were objectively better than them in their event? Maybe 15? 20?
He is truly great in terms of American middle distance running by that mark in my opinion. He is a good mid-distance runner overall, has the talent to be one of the world’s greats and a historical great, but 6th at the Olympics doesn’t prove that yet. Centro winning the Olympics wasn’t even honestly convincing of him being truly great.
I want to see either an Olympic or WC win or runner-up ALONG WITH an insane time to be convinced. If he’s running 3:23 and loses to Jakob by .1 seconds, sure I’m convinced. If he gets 2nd at a WC in a 3:29? Meh.
Wasn't Wheating done in by a career ending injury? Not a bad one, just a stress fracture, but he was never the same after.
That could happen to any elite. Athing Mu could get PF tomorrow and be walking with a limp for the next 2 years. Sports medicine still doesn't know how to stop it. Evan Jager is probably cursed with the enduring memory of that last hurdle before sub 8.