I know someone kind of like this, just a slower version.
He always averages low 7:00/mi on long runs (16 to 20 mi), and like 7:45 on “recovery” runs. His heart rate on long runs ends up in the 170s-180s.
His PR is like 2:51 or 2:52 — I forget exactly.
I also notice he stops several times mid run, so his total elapsed time is anywhere from like 5-15 minutes longer.
I think he’s just trying to artificially inflate his average pace. It shouldn’t annoy me, but we race at the same level, so it does.
Those look like pretty reasonable paces for. 250ish marathoner to be running...
This isn’t the same at all in fact. Now if this person were running ALL of their runs at 6:25-6:30 pace it would be comparable.
I think OP said the guy has run a 72 half right? That's pretty solid. Even if it's 72-high, that shows low-2:30s marathon potential. Idk why he's doing all of his miles at 6-flat. Heck, idk how he's doing all his miles at 6-flat. That's my MP & I run a lot of 7:00-7:45 pace. Seems like this guy should get a coach. Needs more rep work in the 5:15-5:45 range and then easy days @ 7:00+. I just can't see how his PR isn't maybe a touch faster if he's doing every day at 6-flat but then I see the half and it makes sense. This guy could run a 2:35ish and has plenty of potential to keep going with proper training.
I knew a master's guy like this. He did less mileage but would do 10k-ish/day @ 6:00 flat and then go out and race 10k @ 5:40ish. He ran a low-1:20's half and a marathon in the 2:50's. Made no sense to me. My body hurt looking at weeks stacked up with only 6:00 pace running as a 34/35 10k type.
What annoys me is the fact that this person labels their 7:00/mi runs as “easy.” Maybe it is according to Jack Daniels, but I never liked that term... I’m sorry but 30sec slower than your marathon PR pace is not “easy.” I think he does most of his training in a moderate grey zone. It’s like he is too insecure to ever go 8 or 9 minutes per mile in training.
I run much slower on average (8:30 or slower is my easy pace) and still manage to beat him in races.
marathon seijin wrote:
What annoys me is the fact that this person labels their 7:00/mi runs as “easy.” Maybe it is according to Jack Daniels, but I never liked that term... I’m sorry but 30sec slower than your marathon PR pace is not “easy.” I think he does most of his training in a moderate grey zone. It’s like he is too insecure to ever go 8 or 9 minutes per mile in training.
I run much slower on average (8:30 or slower is my easy pace) and still manage to beat him in races.
I didn’t mean to come across so negative. I am also annoyed that this guy is wasting his potential. He has way more talent than me....
The guy referenced by the OP is also wasting his potential.
It’s painful to see that.
marathon seijin wrote:
marathon seijin wrote:
What annoys me is the fact that this person labels their 7:00/mi runs as “easy.” Maybe it is according to Jack Daniels, but I never liked that term... I’m sorry but 30sec slower than your marathon PR pace is not “easy.” I think he does most of his training in a moderate grey zone. It’s like he is too insecure to ever go 8 or 9 minutes per mile in training.
I run much slower on average (8:30 or slower is my easy pace) and still manage to beat him in races.
I didn’t mean to come across so negative. I am also annoyed that this guy is wasting his potential. He has way more talent than me....
The guy referenced by the OP is also wasting his potential.
It’s painful to see that.
It's less painful when you see how he treats other people on the trail.
WinnytheBish wrote:
marathon seijin wrote:
I didn’t mean to come across so negative. I am also annoyed that this guy is wasting his potential. He has way more talent than me....
The guy referenced by the OP is also wasting his potential.
It’s painful to see that.
It's less painful when you see how he treats other people on the trail.
Fair point.
The guy I was referring to is at least nice and friendly.
Even some ostensible jerks can be likable though, like the infamous Cicirunner on YouTube.
I find this thread very interesting because there is a guy in my club who trains at a very similar speed but the juxtaposition between his results and the results described by the OP is striking. The guy I know averaged roughly 90mpw this year at almost exactly 6:00 pace. He does run some workouts significantly faster but rarely runs slower than 6:20 average on any run. His marathon PR is 2:13 (pre vaporfly era) and he has run in the 2:14-2:17 range a bunch of times.
marathon seijin wrote:
I know someone kind of like this, just a slower version.
He always averages low 7:00/mi on long runs (16 to 20 mi), and like 7:45 on “recovery” runs. His heart rate on long runs ends up in the 170s-180s.
His PR is like 2:51 or 2:52 — I forget exactly.
I also notice he stops several times mid run, so his total elapsed time is anywhere from like 5-15 minutes longer.
I think he’s just trying to artificially inflate his average pace. It shouldn’t annoy me, but we race at the same level, so it does.
I was right in that pr range and that doesnt seem THAT strange. I would run my easy runs at 7:30-8:20 but it would happen all that time, when I'm feeling good, and look down and I'm going 6:50 and think "whoa, i didn't realize I was going that fast, I need to slow down." It wouldn't have been great training, to run everything at 7:00, but I could have EASILY done it. I sure as hell couldnt have run all my mileage 10-20 seconds faster than MP, like OP is talking about
Same Story, Different Results wrote:
I find this thread very interesting because there is a guy in my club who trains at a very similar speed but the juxtaposition between his results and the results described by the OP is striking. The guy I know averaged roughly 90mpw this year at almost exactly 6:00 pace. He does run some workouts significantly faster but rarely runs slower than 6:20 average on any run. His marathon PR is 2:13 (pre vaporfly era) and he has run in the 2:14-2:17 range a bunch of times.
Next time I see him out there I'll tell, "YOU COULD RUN 2:13!" really loud and awkwardly
WinnytheBish wrote:
GBohannon wrote:
I can understand all of these “slower” guesses because it is typically the borderline BQers who hammer everyday like this. 4500 is a LOT of miles though. This guy has to be sub 2:30. Maybe 2:22?
You would think so! However, his PR is roughly 2:42-2:44. Not giving the exact time to defend the identity a bit.
Keep in mind the runs are all in next%s too so they're really like 6:10 pace or something I bet.
Yes, and he is also training too hard! If he ran some of his miles at 8:00 pace he would be much faster. Live and Learn. Learn and live. Rodney Dangerfield
Steve Prefontaine was famous for running all his miles under 6:00.
1. Who was timing his morning runs?
2. What about warmups, warmdowns, running drills?
3. Pre had back trouble. Could the insistence on running sub-6 all the time contributed to it?
Steve Prefontaine would either have burnt out with what he was doing or gotten smart and broke all the world records!
waltertompatton wrote:
Steve Prefontaine was famous for running all his miles under 6:00.
1. Who was timing his morning runs?
2. What about warmups, warmdowns, running drills?
3. Pre had back trouble. Could the insistence on running sub-6 all the time contributed to it?
Steve Prefontaine would either have burnt out with what he was doing or gotten smart and broke all the world records!
Not sure if this kid drinks the same amount as Pre did but if he doesn't he should start I suppose.
On topic wrote:
Do you know for sure he's doing all of his runs in next%s? Or is that going by his Strava?
Because I know a ton of people who do not keep accurate account of their shoes on Strava since adding new ones requires going to the desktop version and is too annoying for them. People with 5700 miles logged on Brooks Ghosts or Hoka Cliftons or whatever because they added a single pair 3 years ago and never kept it up to date.
It's possible to change shoes on the mobile app, although I know many runners who don't bother, showing thousands of miles on the one shoe.
Re this person's training, all mileage in the medium effort range, slower than half race pace, probably not the most effective way to train for fast times, but works for some. Was it master Norm Green who ran all sub 6 in training, under 2:40 for the marathon?
Jimmy21 wrote:
I was right in that pr range and that doesnt seem THAT strange. I would run my easy runs at 7:30-8:20 but it would happen all that time, when I'm feeling good, and look down and I'm going 6:50 and think "whoa, i didn't realize I was going that fast, I need to slow down." It wouldn't have been great training, to run everything at 7:00, but I could have EASILY done it. I sure as hell couldnt have run all my mileage 10-20 seconds faster than MP, like OP is talking about
Could you have run the mileage 30s slower than HM time? I could have in HS but that was largely a function of my HM being horrible (think running 10 min 2 mile and a 80 min HM. To be fair I only had like a half dozen runs over 10 miles and the HM course was hilly. Going out at 5:40s was a bit too aggressive even though it felt easy for 6 miles:)).
marathon seijin wrote:
I know someone kind of like this, just a slower version.
He always averages low 7:00/mi on long runs (16 to 20 mi), and like 7:45 on “recovery” runs. His heart rate on long runs ends up in the 170s-180s.
His PR is like 2:51 or 2:52 — I forget exactly.
That isn't at all the same...
- OPs friend is averaging his runs at 15 to 20 seconds per mile faster than marathon pace.
- Your friend is doing his long run at 25 seconds slower than marathon pace and recovery runs at 75 seconds slower than marathon pace.
In other words, your friend is pretty much following the paces most people would recommend. His recovery pace might even be considered a bit on the slow side.
Which begs the question: how slow are you running most days if you think what he is doing is too fast?
If he didn't grow up racing shorter distances or playing other sports, it's possible he literally can't run fast. He hasn't developed the neural pathways for recruiting lots of fibers at once, and would benefit from a few weeks of real sprint training.
This thread is the equivalent of stating "I know someone who used to have drinks with Paris Hilton after going on shopping sprees with Elton John, guess how many rose petals he bathes in?"
Another giver of +1 wrote:
On topic wrote:
Do you know for sure he's doing all of his runs in next%s? Or is that going by his Strava?
Because I know a ton of people who do not keep accurate account of their shoes on Strava since adding new ones requires going to the desktop version and is too annoying for them. People with 5700 miles logged on Brooks Ghosts or Hoka Cliftons or whatever because they added a single pair 3 years ago and never kept it up to date.
It's possible to change shoes on the mobile app, although I know many runners who don't bother, showing thousands of miles on the one shoe.
Re this person's training, all mileage in the medium effort range, slower than half race pace, probably not the most effective way to train for fast times, but works for some. Was it master Norm Green who ran all sub 6 in training, under 2:40 for the marathon?
Norm Green, ran 2:27:42 at age 55. Used to train all steady mileage, 60 per week, all under 6 minute miles.
People keep trying to make comparisons here and everyone is falling way short.
90 mpw @ sub-6 pace is a baffling, unprecedented pace for someone with a marathon PR in the mid-240s. Most people with that PR couldn’t run more than 35-40 miles in a single week at that pace I would guess.
As far as I can tell there really is no comparison to this individual.