Mr. Renato Canova: Could You Please Answer a Question About Effective Ways to Improve the Lactate Threshold?

Wello wrote:

come on, you must be the guys who also think that Coe ran 8x800m in 1:49 and Zatopek did 40x400m in 60.0 secs, wake up...

6 x 800 in 1:50 average, actually. Coe is making up his workouts as well, then?

You tell us, Wello, since obviously you know what all world class runners are capable of in training despite never having witnessed any of those you reference (if any at all), what sort of times are "believable" to you?

12:37.35? 26:20.31? 3:26.00? Or are these "made up" and run on "short tracks" as well?

Hi Mike.

I am talking about the new Gebrselassie book, The Greatest, by Jim Denison. Renato's book, I think, is on marathon training, unrelated to any specific elite runner's biography. The book can be ordered over Amazon. Just type author name or title.

The workout Denison described was one of three weekly track sessions by the Ethiopian squad at the team's national stadium outside Addis Abbaba.

It went:

4 x 1200 2:55

4 x 800 1:58-1:59

4 x 400 55

No recovery times were given, nor were specifics given (if it was run in "waterfall" fashion, etc.)

Afterwards in the parking lot there was a description of what the runners were doing. Haile was immediately on a cell phone talking business as he is very busy with all his businesses in Ethiopia. It said only that Gebre-egziabher Gebremariam and Kenenisa Bekele were in the parking lot after training talking about the new watches they had. I assume, then, that they are part of the training group.

Jim Denison, the author, never mentioned Dejene Berhanu or Tariku Bekele in the book.

Tariku emerged with that win over Tergat after the book went to print.

I admit I made a mistake about the introductive period being very intense, but now I look at the one below and I think it is indeed VERY intense. Anyone can comment on this analysis below.

Before reading not this period is 4 months long and the example below is described as "simple."

This say certainly is of moderate intensity. The run in the morning is moderate, and though the circuits are described as "easy" I have done circuits even described as easy and almost any type of circuit mixing strength exercises with sprinting (it is tough to "sprint" at 80% because we think of the word "sprinting" meaning maximum effort) is difficult. So consider this a moderately hard to hard day, with a moderate run and fairly difficult circuits. Only my opinion, though.

Day 1: Moderately hard (1 moderate run, 1 harder circuit)

In the morning certainly a tough workout. About 1300 meters at 4:49 mile pace 5 times (so a bit more than 4 miles at 4:49 pace). The progression goes eventually to 7 minutes at this same pace, which is very difficult (no time for the athlete is given, but let us assume it is the 13:30 athlete from before), meaning in 4 weeks the athlete will do 5 x 7 minutes at 4:49 mile pace, or 5 x 2330m. Difficult. The afternoon is easy. Combining the effect of the moderately hard day before, consider this day a hard effort.

Day 2: Hard (1 hard fartlek, 1 easy run)

So far two moderate to hard days in a row. This Wednesday is not "hard" per se, but exercises are not, as Renato said, necessarily very easy on the nervous system. This exercises set can be somewhat taxing to the neuromuscular system in duration and intensity. There is also an easy run. The volume, too, can be considered a stimulus so this should be considered in the total stress accumulated. For the most part, this day is easy.

Day 3: Easy (2 easy runs, 5 sets of exercises)

Another hard day. The morning work of 4 km climbing is hard. To climb a hill steadily puts great stress on the heart muscle and the systolic pressure rises higher than that of flat running. The progression too is of faster speed or more distance at the same speed, a higher stimulus. In the afternoon the work may be medium hard with fartlek with "good frequency." Call this a hard day.

Day 4: Hard (1 hard long hill climbing, 1 medium short fartlek)

With the progression of getting faster this can be easy bordering on medium intensity. For a 13:30 athlete, 3:30 pace is not too bad, but the duration of 80 minutes can also provide a stimulus. Also technical exercises. For all intents and purposes, an easy day

Day 5: Easy (1 easy to medium longer run, 1 easy run, 5 sets of exercises)

This day is moderate. 24:40 for 8K we think of as a good collegiiate cross-country time for a 29-30 minute 10K runner. 13:30 is a bit faster, so for him a medium run. The afternoon is easy. Let us call it moderate.

Day 6: Moderate (1 medium middle distance run, 1 easy run)

Because of length and accumulated volume, this could be moderate (or hard if "personal sensation" means the athlete can feel good and run hard). Let us call it moderate because of accumulated volume and the possibility of the athlete running moderate to hard. Time spent on the feet can make even a medium pace harder also.

Day 7: Easy or Moderate (1 long run).

So the week has 2 moderately hard/hard days in a row, an easy day, hard, easy, moderate, and easy to moderate. Also we should remember the volume:

110 to 125 miles, perhaps at altitude, with 3 hard days (sometimes more than one hard workout in a single day) and 1-2 moderate days seems very tough over the course of 4 months, and this is just a simple introductive part of the fundamental period. Maybe I underestimate the resilience of a 13:30 5,000 meter runner, but even adapted for someone a little slower, I think it still is tough (and the training definitely must be hard to be fast, but maybe not so hard as this; Tinman proposed that more than 2 hard days to this end does not significantly impact fitness, ergo, 2 hard days could be better for recovery and stimulus for improvement than 3-5).

What of mixing workouts of hills?

As an example, I have only a number of days to do workouts in the week and fit everything (basic short speed, threshold work, etc.).

So I planned to do repetitions of a 1200m hill (I have no 6km long hill like the Kenyans) and at the end 4 circuits of 300m as Renato described:

60m sprinting climbing

10 squat jumps

60m sprint climbing

30m bounding climbing

60m sprinting climbing

30m skipping climbing

60m sprinting climbing

My question; can two aspects of strength in this manner be mixed correctly in one session? Or is it better to do long hills one day and circuits on a different day?

Bump

never trained with world record holders but with world-class distance runners and what they do is not different to what i do for example in training, same sessions just the 2-3-4secs per lap quicker they are also in races, same exhaustion just faster pace.

Take for example the Komen workout, Gebres workout is far superior to the workout by Komen and he still slower/equal at 1.5-3k-5k, get it?

If the workout is correct, dont you think Gebre would have run something around 3:21 for 1500m?

Racer1 wrote:

[quote]Wello wrote:

come on, you must be the guys who also think that Coe ran 8x800m in 1:49 and Zatopek did 40x400m in 60.0 secs, wake up...

6 x 800 in 1:50 average, actually. Coe is making up his workouts as well, then?

quote]

man, you are really a fool, sorry for that but its common knowledge that Coe did this sessions on a road-downhill and the distance was measured by a car....

On Track he did this 800m reps at 13:20-5k pace session or progressive 2:10 down to just under 2:00 for the last rep.

Normal sessions...10x400 with 60secs rest~1500m pace,6x800m with 2min rest~3k pace, 8x1k with 2min rest~5k pace.

Wello, you seem to lack all conception of training for a top distance runner. Did you ever read of Bob Kennedy's training visit to England to train with Komen? This is one of the byproducts:(This is Komen's work, on a track in England):1600- 3:521200- 2:51800- 1:51400- 52200- 24And that is "LESS" difficult than Gebrselassie's session? If you can swallow that nonsense I have a parcel of land in the middle of the Atlantic ocean to sell you. A 3:51 mile IN A WORKOUT. And later in the same week it was 20 400's in groups of 5 in 56-58 seconds. And before that some 300m hills earlier in the week.I do suggest to you, AGAIN, do a bit of reading.

Wello wrote:

man, you are really a fool, sorry for that but its common knowledge that Coe did this sessions on a road-downhill and the distance was measured by a car....

And? What is your point? 6 downhill 800's in 1:50 are still 6 800's in 1:50. Trackhead can pull up that article for you. So if I'M a fool, I wait for a description of yourself, which can only be some lesser intelligence than that depicted by "fool." As for being "measured with a car," what does that have to do with ANYTHING?

I think that, overall, the prevailing idea is that Komen's training was extremely intense, and that Renato commented earlier that this was partially responsible for his short, yet brilliant time at the top. Komen had roughly a three year window when he was virtually untouchable, but then that was it. From what I've read, although there are certainly the necessary ball busters, Geb's training is relatively low intensity with lots of moderate to relaxed running and LT work.

a 3:52 1600m is more like a 3:53 high mile and probably is 3:54 low being the 1600m not likely being a 3:52.00. That is a big difference from a 3:51 mile.

wrong dude, the komen workout described by Kennedy:

3:54-2:53-1:54-55, yes that is a difference and its a big difference to the Gebrselassie workout as this is only half the volume at the same speed(and at sealevel).

Now you tell me how hard a 3:51 mile in workout is and Gebrselassie does 9,6km of intervals at 3:55-pace....

The point is i have a friend who does regular 1k reps on the road in 2:30 and his 1500m best is 4:01, the distance of the reps were not accurate + downhill factor so to say "but Coe did 6x800m in 1:50 with 2 sec rest" is worthless.From his log prior to the 84 games:30x200m~27/28sec, 6x800m in 2:00 with 3min rest(thats "a bit" easier than 6 in 1:50 with 45sec rest), 6x400 in 52secs,...normal workouts.

hahaha, YOU should read more carefully

here the kennedy interview:

http://www.duathlon.com/articles/215

here the coe-log:

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=333361&page=0

stop acting like a 25-year old virgin

READ-THINK-POST

so and this is from a horwill article:

But where did Coe get his amazing endurance from? The answer came to me in 1986 when I went to Battersea Park Track one Saturday morning with a 13:11 5km performer to do a session of 7 x 800m at 5km speed with 45 secs rest. The rep times were fixed at 2:08 because the 5km runner was returning to fitness after injury. Coe was on the track and came across and asked what we were doing and could he join in? I felt a little apprehensive that an acknowledged 800m/1,500m runner would not survive a 5km pace session with a short recovery. The 800ms went like this: 2:08, 2:06, 2:04, 2:02, 2:00, 1:58 and 1:56! Coe led them all. Afterwards, he confessed that he did a 5km pace session at 13:20 speed each week.

must be jogging for someone who can run 6x800s in 1:50 with the same recovery.

Enough insults everybody, it makes the thread go downhill, keep up the good training comments though

thanx for the tip, Michael....heal the world...

I wanted to bump this thread cause while watching Euro-Xc this sunday and seeing Lebed dominating the comeptition i remembered that Renato posted something like "Lebed has the best muscular power in a distance runner behind Bekele", it was really a great performance, Lebed was looking totally effortless, huge stride-high knee lift, however i want to ask Renato if Lebed also do the circuits/hill sprints we can see in Cheronos Training...?

All I can say is:

1) wello, I think you are being a bit of a jerk here. Relax, and disuss.

2) Yes, the Coe 6x 800 in 1:50 with 45 seconds rest is not possible, I agree. BUT......where was THAT exact workout quoted....? I don't know. Was it reported with 45 seconds rest, or are people combining 2 reported workouts (the one Horwill mentions above run with Hutchings, and another one) ?

3) Now as far as the possibility of Coe running 6 x 1:50 with fullrest.....I think that IS possible. Think about it: Coe ran 1:41 and was capable of possibly even faster (most runners don't necessarily run the PERFECT race when they were there all-time best shape, right? They might always have had a tiny bit more somewhere). So let's say, for the sake of argument, he was capable of 1:40.x, ok? (that's not a stretch). 6 800's in 1:50...that would be like someone like you or I, say, who was in 2:00 shape for the 800 running 6 800's in 2:12 (that's the same % slower than current PR, as Coe's 1:50 would be to his possible 1:40 ability). 6 x 2:12 with FULL rest for a 2:00 guy....do you think that is impossible???

If not, then 6 x 1:50 for Coe certainly was not impossible.

1)may be true, hard to tell...

2)Don't know

3)You forget one thing:mechanics-speed, Coe was a speed demon but you get even after full rest more and more tired muscular so it gets harder and harder to run 55s even when you are 46-47sec 400m-man and get full rest, running economy would go down and then 1:50s seem very fast.

and here is the difference:when you take two 46sec 400m guys one with a 1:41 best and one with a 2:00 best, guy one should have much more problems running the session in 1:50 than the 2:00 guy -||- in 2:10 because of working out at higher speeds.

800

Nice article on Lebid from the IAAF:

http://www.iaaf.org/news/Kind=2/newsId=28025.html

Lebid – Portuguese idols and nine years of training consistency

Tuesday 14 December 2004

To most who watched Sergiy Lebid waving to the crowd in the closing moments of Sunday’s European Cross Country Championships men’s race, a record fifth victory for the Ukrainian victory seemed all but certain.

But that assessment was not one shared by the laid back, jovial Lebid. At least not at first.

"Today was not easy," the 29-year-old Ukrainian said. "It was not pressure-free. Everyone expected me to win."

Yet from the moment he decided to take control of the race, some 16 minutes into the competition, it become clear that the only battle in Seebad Heringsdorf would be one for second place.

"When it came down to the fourth lap, I felt great. At that moment I knew that I would win the race."

The victory would be the "greatest" of his five. He won by 23 seconds in 27:31 over the 9.64 km course, the largest victory margin of his five victories.

"Each victory is very important," he said, unable to pick a favourite from his growing list of continental titles. "But this one," he added, "is the most special."

Guerra and Lopes

Despite displacing Paulo Guerra from the record books with his fifth win, Lebid said he’ll always look up to the Portuguese star. "In my first years running in the championships, as a junior, Guerra was winning. He was the big star. His is still an idol."

And he is quick to brush off any suggestion that he is now the greatest of European cross country runners. That title he said, firmly belongs to another Portuguese, three-time World champion Carlos Lopes, who also captured two silver medals at the global event in addition to his wins in 1976, 1984 and 1985.

While some admit they aren’t fully prepared for the early-season fight for the continental title, Lebid said that for him, it’s among his highest priorities.

"It’s one of my main focuses of the year," he said. His winning margins seem to echo that assessment. After his one-second victory over Belgian Mohamed Mourhit in Ferrara, Italy in 1998, his other four victories weren’t particularly close.

In Thun, Switzerland in 2001, he beat runner-up Kamiel Maase by 13 seconds; in Medulin, Croatia, he topped Mustapha Essaid by five seconds; and last year in Edinburgh, he finished 21 seconds ahead of Spaniard Juan Carlos de al Ossa, who was second again this year.

"All the wins were difficult, but the win in 2001, in Switzerland, was perhaps psychologically, the easiest." At the time, he was on the mend from an injury he suffered two months before that race in Thun, and said he wasn’t thinking much about a victory. "There was no pressure."

Nine years of consistency

In preparation for his season-opening European Championships, Lebid said he "trains hard" each October, a training regimen he hasn’t strayed from for the past nine years. He runs six days a week, three times a day, logging as many as 900 kilometers in the month. A typical autumn training day, Lebid said, begins soon after he wakes up at 6:30 with a 30 to 35 minute run before returning for breakfast. At noon, he said, it’s time for a 20 to 25 kilometre run, slogging through sand along the shores of the Black Sea every other day. "That’s the best preparation for the legs." At 5:30 or six in the evening comes time for this third run.

In November, he relocated to Russia, near the border Georgia, for a training stint at altitude. Adding a bit of intrigue to his quick geography lesson, he adds with a hearty laugh, "It’s just 100 kilometres from Chechenya!"

Possible Brussels date

Looking ahead, he said his immediate race schedule is still subject to revision, but said he’ll "probably compete" in Sunday’s LOTTO Iris Crosscup in Brussels, while his appearance at the Edinburgh race on January 15, where he could meet Kenenisa Bekele and Saif Said Shaheen, is still under negotiation. After perhaps a pair of appearances indoors on the track, Lebid said he would then fully concentrate on the upcoming World Cross Country Championships in St-Etienne/St-Galmier.

After a silver medal performance in the long course at the 2002 World championships, Lebid hasn’t fared nearly as well since. In 2003 in Lausanne, he dropped out in the fourth lap, and didn’t compete in Brussels last year. With that in mind, he said he will slightly alter his preparation as the March competition approaches.

"In previous years, I stopped racing three weeks before the championships. This year I’ll stop for five weeks. Perhaps that will change things more in my favour.”

Bob Ramsak for the IAAF

would be interesting to know how fast the runs are.

900km a month is amazing for a cross runner!