El Guerrouj 2k WR - Incredible 3:49 Mile pace

Armstronglivs wrote:

You duck my question not because it is beside the point but because you can't answer it. But keep lying.

But the real on-point issue here is why you keep ducking the question.

Armstronglivs wrote:

rekrunner wrote:

This conclusion looks like it is caused by a limited ability of perception. It is like the hammer who doesn't understand the screw, because he only sees the nail.

I know when someone is a screw loose.

It is also a lie.

Your specialty.

I have often confirmed doping prevalence, and acknowledge the strong, widely held, belief in the powerful effect of doping.

There it is again - doping exists but people only "believe" it works. Behind the semantic contortions is the view that doping doesn't actually work, people only think it does. That is a denier.

What I seek is the data and controlled observations that support my beliefs.

Fixed.

The world as viewed by "hammer head" Armstronglivs.

We have seen much data and controlled observations that support my beliefs -- do you have any that support yours?

rekrunner wrote:

Armstronglivs wrote:

You duck my question not because it is beside the point but because you can't answer it. But keep lying.

But the real on-point issue here is why I keep ducking the question.

Fixed again.

rekrunner wrote:

Armstronglivs wrote:

Fixed.

The world as viewed by "hammer head" Armstronglivs.

We have seen much data and controlled observations that support my beliefs -- do you have any that support yours?

So you have gone from "presenting the findings of experts" as your goal to finding that which supports your "beliefs". You come closer to the truth. It is only about your beliefs - and anything that maintains them. But in that regard you reason no better than a Q'Anon conspiracy theorist.

Armstronglivs wrote:

You duck my question not because it is beside the point but because you can't answer it. But keep lying.

I should also expose this for the verifiable lie that it is.

Although your questions represented an alternative goalpost, I provided lengthy answers to your questions a few pages back. This was followed by a non-substantive question session, as all the answers had already been given in the lengthy posts.

As to your latest question "why isn't El G out of breath?" -- I have also answered that very early in this thread. Although El G's instant fitness is a major factor, the effort was also greatly reduced by even pacing and drafting from pace makers.

Armstronglivs wrote:

So you have gone from "presenting the findings of experts" as your goal to finding that which supports your "beliefs". You come closer to the truth. It is only about your beliefs - and anything that maintains them. But in that regard you reason no better than a Q'Anon conspiracy theorist.

Did I say "presenting the findings of experts"? This looks more like hammer-head misinterpretation.

It was not my goal to find data which supports my "beliefs" as the formation of my belief arises from all of the data I've already found, while ignoring none of it.

I didn't go there, but it is where we started -- despite both you and Shopping Hour insisting evidence exists, no one has presented anything that contradicts my beliefs.

Although I just asked you for expert direction, this was just a first baby-step. My primary goal is not the "findings" or baseless "opinions" of experts, but the data and controlled observations of the experts.

A secondary goal, which really arose from your "ducking the question" for going on 40 pages, is for you, or Shopping Hour, to present some contradictory evidence that doesn't fit my beliefs, or that I ignore.

rekrunner wrote:

Tom Cochrane wrote:

and if you want to get more bang for your buck go there and dope. It's what all the cool kids are doing.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30188362/

You say "more bang" -- are you familiar with the data connected to this study on Kenyan athletes?

A group of scientists took Kenyans with a demonstrated ability to run the equivalent of 8-minute time trials.

Then these Kenyans ran a preliminary time-trial in 9:20, or roughly marathon pace.

Then after 4-weeks of EPO, these Kenyans sped up to 9:00, or roughly half-marathon pace.

This is hardly a remarkable achievement, and one doesn't need EPO to take athletes from 85%-90% of their predicted ability, unless perhaps you are a group of scientists who know very little about coaching elite athletes to run elite performances.

Is this what you mean by "more bang"?

It sure is. That's a vast improvement. Do you even run?

Tom Cochrane wrote:

rekrunner wrote:

Is this what you mean by "more bang"?

It sure is. That's a vast improvement. Do you even run?

Yes it is. But that's not nearly enough information.

It's a vast improvement from marathon pace. You don't need EPO to run faster than marathon pace for 3000m.

And that doesn't even begin to explain "EPO raises the limit better than altitude does", especially when considering elite performances.

Yes I run. I'm a rek-runner.

Armstronglivs wrote:

The athlete does not breathe more or less, they are simply more efficient with each breath. that they can create more energy because of extra available oxygen. (Quote)

The essential point I was effectively making 30 pages ago. But it will not penetrate the denial granite of rekrunner and Jon Orange. Citations!

So how does EPO doping circumvent thermoregulation?

$10,000 prize for an explanation.

how does that work? wrote:

$10,000 prize for an explanation.

Maybe freon (Dichlorodifluoromethane - CCl2F2) is one of the by-products of global warming combining C42H73NO16 with ozone (O3) depleting chlorofluorocarbons, ultimately turning O3 into more O2 with the by-products refrigerating the muscles.

Please donate the money to the Northern Ireland businesses.

how does that work? wrote:

Armstronglivs wrote:

The athlete does not breathe more or less, they are simply more efficient with each breath. that they can create more energy because of extra available oxygen. (Quote)

The essential point I was effectively making 30 pages ago. But it will not penetrate the denial granite of rekrunner and Jon Orange. Citations!

So how does EPO doping circumvent thermoregulation?

$10,000 prize for an explanation.

It doesn't need to. Donate the 10 to WADA.

rekrunner wrote:

Tom Cochrane wrote:

It sure is. That's a vast improvement. Do you even run?

Yes it is. But that's not nearly enough information.

It's a vast improvement from marathon pace. You don't need EPO to run faster than marathon pace for 3000m.

And that doesn't even begin to explain "EPO raises the limit better than altitude does", especially when considering elite performances.

Yes I run. I'm a rek-runner.

It's more than enough info. When you take that much off you're just better all around.

It also totally explains elite performances.

Tom Cochrane wrote:

how does that work? wrote:

So how does EPO doping circumvent thermoregulation?

$10,000 prize for an explanation.

It doesn't need to. Donate the 10 to WADA.

Explain why and the money is yours.

rekrunner wrote:

Armstronglivs wrote:

You duck my question not because it is beside the point but because you can't answer it. But keep lying.

I should also expose this for the verifiable lie that it is.

Although your questions represented an alternative goalpost, I provided lengthy answers to your questions a few pages back. This was followed by a non-substantive question session, as all the answers had already been given in the lengthy posts.

As to your latest question "why isn't El G out of breath?" -- I have also answered that very early in this thread. Although El G's instant fitness is a major factor, the effort was also greatly reduced by even pacing and drafting from pace makers.

So "even pacing and drafting" improves oxygen flow to the muscles and so allows an athlete like El G to compete with less respiratory effort. Another fatuous and unsubstantiated assertion. I'm sure you think even pacing and drafting are more performance enhancing than doping. And when you talk of El G's "instant fitness" (what exactly is "instant" about fitness?) it is beyond your consideration to perceive that his fitness could be fuelled by drugs. You are ludicrous.

how does that work? wrote:

Tom Cochrane wrote:

It doesn't need to. Donate the 10 to WADA.

Explain why and the money is yours.

Figure it out yourself. Stop trying to get everyone to feed you answers.

how does that work? wrote:

Tom Cochrane wrote:

It doesn't need to. Donate the 10 to WADA.

Explain why and the money is yours.

Again? You didn't pay up the last 20 times you made this offer.

Homeostasis is a range with thermoregulation assisting it. EPO enhances thermoregulation. It moves all the goalposts. This has been explained dozens of times.

I'll take cash.

Tom Cochrane wrote:

how does that work? wrote:

Explain why and the money is yours.

Again? You didn't pay up the last 20 times you made this offer.

Homeostasis is a range with thermoregulation assisting it. EPO enhances thermoregulation. It moves all the goalposts. This has been explained dozens of times.

I'll take cash.

Homeostasis is very tightly controlled with Thermoregulation. It has to be. Human Bioenergetic efficiency is limited by Genetics and Thermodynamics. This is basic Physiology.

Your proposal is that doping can increase the rate of energy Kinetics without reference to Thermodynamics.

Armstronglivs wrote:

So "even pacing and drafting" improves oxygen flow to the muscles and so allows an athlete like El G to compete with less respiratory effort. Another fatuous and unsubstantiated assertion. I'm sure you think even pacing and drafting are more performance enhancing than doping. And when you talk of El G's "instant fitness" (what exactly is "instant" about fitness?) it is beyond your consideration to perceive that his fitness could be fuelled by drugs. You are ludicrous.

Since we didn't see improved oxygen flow to the muscles on the video, I didn't think it was necessary to explain something we are not sure even occurred.

But sure -- even pacing and drafting reduces the total energy required which reduces the total oxygen required. This is the main reason why world record attempts are paced and drafted -- but go ahead and believe it is just my unsubstantiated assertion. In any case, you asked me to propose an alternative theory -- proposed theories do not need to be substantiated.

"Instant" means at that moment, as opposed to months earlier in the off-season.

Of course it is possible that his fitness could be fueled by drugs -- it's surprising you keep denying this possibility. You accused me of not presenting an alternative theory -- why would I rehash yours? The alternative is that it is possible his fitness was not fueled by drugs. Again -- 43% of letsrunners believed it a few years ago, so this is not an extreme outlying opinion.

how does that work? wrote:

Tom Cochrane wrote:

Again? You didn't pay up the last 20 times you made this offer.

Homeostasis is a range with thermoregulation assisting it. EPO enhances thermoregulation. It moves all the goalposts. This has been explained dozens of times.

I'll take cash.

Homeostasis is very tightly controlled with Thermoregulation. It has to be. Human Bioenergetic efficiency is limited by Genetics and Thermodynamics. This is basic Physiology.

Your proposal is that doping can increase the rate of energy Kinetics without reference to Thermodynamics.

It's not that tight and the body has no trouble with the rate.

You don't understand basic physiology and have made up a silly erroneous model.

Cash please.