A closer look at EPO-era performances

Voice of Reason wrote:

rekrunner wrote:

- But what about non-Africans, many from countries much richer than Kenya and Ethiopia, who could have used Asterix's magic potion to catch East and North Africans?

This is getting stale! The key word you use is "could have."

+1

Other key words are the nonsense of " Asterix's magic potion to catch East and North Africans". There is no such thing; EPO is not a magic equalizer, it is a performance enhancing drug. For example, it could make a 13:10 runner into a 12:55 runner and a 12:50 runner into a 12:40 runner, but not a 13:10 runner into a 12:40 runner.

Overlooking the best example wrote:

You seem to be forgetting your wife running that 2:15 all doped up.

Could be a coincidence that she never broke 2:22 again in seven years of trying, after she was flagged and target tested for the second time in 2005 (coincidentally coinciding with the introduction of the enhanced EPO test).

I'd like to come back to this. I did not do an "intervention study". I did not make a hypothesis, nor measure any intervention. If you want to put a label on it, it might be something like "testing a model with real world data". If you want to fit it in your 6-step outline, this fits in just before #6, trying to shine a light on new discoveries, in order to help refine the model. Part of the scientific process is to use models to make predictions about the real world, and then look at the real world to find, not only confirmation, but also exceptions. I note here, that many of the popular beliefs about EPO necessarily causing the best performances in the EPO-era, are not a result of your six-step process, or any other established scientifically valid process.

Cottonshirt wrote:

the trouble with your analysis is that the method does not fit the hypothesis you want to test.

the way intervention studies work is this:

1. establish two groups of evenly matched consenting subjects. divide them randomly into two groups.

2. measure the appropriate metrics for all subjects.

3. one group perform the intervention. the other group, the control, do not.

4. re-measure the metrics, perform analysis, determine whether the intervention has worked.

5. invite others to replicate your experiment and see if they can repeat your result.

6. in the light of new discoveries, revise your hypothesis and go back to step 1.

My wife runs the half-marathon in 2:15. This is "clean", but she does take thyroid medication.

Overlooking the best example wrote:

You seem to be forgetting your wife running that 2:15 all doped up.

rekrunner wrote:

I note here, that many of the popular beliefs about EPO necessarily causing the best performances in the EPO-era, are not a result of your six-step process, or any other established scientifically valid process.

Are you suggesting that the "clean" version of a EPO positive or ABP sanctioned athlete is better than the "doped" version?

rekrunner wrote:

I never claimed to be a teacher.

repetitious explanations wrote:

You are a terrible Teacher then.

The point is that you are trying to teach your theory and failing miserably.

memory check wrote:

rekrunner wrote:

- Only second class runners, like the Spanish, and Lombard, took EPO to help them run 1980s times.

Please remind us: who was running 3 28 for 1500m in the 1980s and who were all the Irish runners that were running 27 33 for 10000m in the 1980s?

Are Olympic/World champions from the 1990s ranked as second class runners in your classification system?

So many pages into this thread and all we can say is that people ran faster in the 1990s following the introduction of EPO as a PED into endurance sports.

Why wouldn't an Irish runner run 27.33 with or without EPO? How come the Irish hate him but love Sean Kelly?

There was bound to be a progression in the 90s.

Why was blood doping so innefective in the 70s and 80s, but now you believe it's performance enhancing.

How does EPO circumvent homeostasis?

Why does everyone lie about the efficacy of EPO claiming 5- 10% increase in oxygen uptake and similar improvements in performance?

Why do people claim that Lance Armstrong's power outputs were 10% higher than they actually were?

Overlooking the best example wrote:

You seem to be forgetting your wife running that 2:15 all doped up.

he seems to forget a lot of things, like saying he has no power to delete and yet it keeps happening, claims he is gary, claims he isnt gary, claims he is british then claims he isnt, claims he doenst know wejo, then admits he knows it was wejo in a diff handle, claims he started this and other threads for a diff reason yet changes his lies and goalposts over and over. laughs and says he must have struck a cord or else why all the reply's

well gary lough, you get comments from the likes of me and casual cause we are over your sh*t. the only people on here that are agreeing with you is yourself under a diff handle.

your wife took the sauce and crushed the WR, off the sauce she was top a 10 runner. you were a 3:46 1500m then dropped 10 seconds like ramzi did, 3:35....still not that good. you complain about how no one good enough in your eyes ever got busted for EPO, yet you dont look at the people that ran WR's and got busted, won gold medals and got busted. so dropping 10 seconds in the 1500m isnt good enough gain for you to say EPO works? let me guess you were just mindweak then changed up your training right?

stop deleting MY POSTS.

Because Lombard doesn't have the all natural tools to run that fast

There was.

It was effective.

It raises the homeostasis level.

Not a lie

Irrelevant. They were higher than they were drug free and consistent across multiple days.

Any more questions?

This is also getting really old. Once again, I never claimed I was Gary. Not MULTIPLE times, and not even one SINGLE time. (Nor did "wejo" connect Gary to any letsrun poster.) If someone actually made that claim, something I highly doubt ever happened, it was an imposter with a modified handle. If I had ever made that claim, it would also be a violation of the Terms and Conditions: "#5 You may not impersonate another person's identity on the message board(s)." Regarding your deleted posts, there is absolutely nothing I have done, and nothing more that I can do outside of offering advice. IMO, your lengthy detailed post on Icarus was a decent post. You seem to have useful contributions in other sprinting threads. If you consistently supplied this level of content, and toned down the baseless personal accusations, then this should solve the problem. That's only my suggestion, because I have no power over the mods.

weakermind wrote:

rekrunner wrote:

I never claimed to be a teacher.

you never claimed you were a teacher....but you have claimed MULTIPLE times that you you are gary, then claim you arnt...oh but the most annoying is how you claim you have no power to delete....yet YOU KEEP DELETING ME. pretty strange to read this post when its just you arguing with deleted comments for 30 pages

you suck

casual obsever wrote:

Other key words are the nonsense of " Asterix's magic potion to catch East and North Africans". There is no such thing; EPO is not a magic equalizer, it is a performance enhancing drug. For example, it could make a 13:10 runner into a 12:55 runner and a 12:50 runner into a 12:40 runner, but not a 13:10 runner into a 12:40 runner.

+1

But the 13:10 runner better at least improve to the top-5 pre-90s average of "13:02.08" or our friend rekrunner will be forever skeptical. Lol.

casual obsever wrote:

Voice of Reason wrote:

This is getting stale! The key word you use is "could have."

+1

Other key words are the nonsense of " Asterix's magic potion to catch East and North Africans". There is no such thing; EPO is not a magic equalizer, it is a performance enhancing drug. For example, it could make a 13:10 runner into a 12:55 runner and a 12:50 runner into a 12:40 runner, but not a 13:10 runner into a 12:40 runner.

i dont know who you are mr casual observer, but im thankful you are smart, logical and you wont stop the fight against garys bullsh*t either.

gary makes it seem to all the noobs on here that he thinks EPO and PEDs dont work, and if they did then a 18 min 5k douchebag would run under under 13:00.

i know deep down gary knows EPO works, but he is bitter its not a "miracle" drug and only got him to 3:35, but made his wife a WR holder.

where gary is delusional in all this is he cant accept that its only a 3-4% gain...but your body has to be able to RESPOND to the affects, and two you have to have talent. if you cant break 14 sec for 100m, EPO will not make you a 3:35 1500m runner. EPO cannot make your body change from slow twitch to fast twitch. no it doesnt work like that.

how many times i have to type this, and how many times gary has to delete it...its ANNOYING. i start a thread and he deletes it, i post on this or other threads and he deletes it. ENOUGH GARY. if i had the ability to DELETE at will i wouldnt be a spoiled brat child and delete your comments!

so i type it again.

-EPO at best gives you a 3-4% gain in events 800-marathon (even guys climbing everest use it)

-EPO is administrated during the base build up phase and into the next phase of training, because its greatest gain for the athlete is with the AEROBIC systems of the body.

-EPO taken at altitude works better, plus EPO at altitude shortens the detection level (that comment was deleted, cause gary HATES medical journals showing how he is a liar)

-kenyans and ethiopians are running slower now than mid 90s-2012, because of the stricter out of season testing (duh thats when EPO is being injected), and the tests are getting better.

-the most effective way to do the EPO (besides HGH, roids, thyroid meds, L-carnatine, macro dose vit D, insulin etc) is to do EPO at altitude, draw out the blood, then inject your blood back in before big races. just like verin but the blood is doped up as well!

gary will delete this as well cause he is a childish coward, and wont give it up.

2002 3:51.05 Cape Town (RSA) 08 MAR 2002

1998 3:43.33 Cardiff (GBR) 04 AUG 1998

1996 3:37.35 Köln (GER) 16 AUG 1996

1995 3:34.76 Monaco (MON) 09 SEP 1995

1994 3:35.83 London (GBR) 15 JUL 1994

1993 3:46.77 Buffalo (USA) 18 JUL 1993

so gary lets check and see what your "progression" was when you sauced up

12.01 second improvement.....if you count monaco, but we all know monaco is "fast" so i will use your london time.

10.94 second improvement. lets see what a % that is shall we gary?

well an improvement of 4% based on your 3:35.83 time says your clean PR should have been say 3:44.46, still 2 seconds fast

but with a 5% gain, it shows that your clean PR would have been...

3:46.62.......dont be so bitter gary. you were a scrub not even a sub 4 equivalent ( 4:00.00 mile would equate to 3:42.18), but the sauce got you down to a "world class time", yeah i know in renato's mind its "sub elite".

but he is a liar about EPO as well and thus adds to your bitterness

but here is this list

3:36.0 Herb Elliott (AUS) 1958-08-28 Gothenburg, Sweden

3:35.6 Herb Elliott (AUS) 1960-09-06 Rome, Italy

3:33.1 Jim Ryun (USA) 1967-07-08 Los Angeles, United States

you would have pretty much owned the WR till vents hero ryun. not a miracle drug but for you it was pretty HUGE...you were a 4:04.2 miler and got down to 3:53.65 miler. dont be so bitter. without EPO you wouldnt have ran that fast, you wouldnt have had a career, and without being a gapped toothed british runner in the "scene" you would have never landed your wife paula. and she made some BANK, with your help of the knowledge you gained using the sauce.

now your sitting pretty, and you cant be content with it, no you have to come on here and troll about EPO and how it doesnt work, delete anyone and everyone who says otherwise, and defend your wife about her sauce usage.

brojos, how about you make a stand and go interview gary and paula and demand to see the full blood results...if you want you can play hardball and ask them about all the lies and excuses. and then do a big write up about your investigation.

if not can you PLEASE delete garys MOD capabilities? its not fair he can play God on here and silence us whenever he wants.

EPO is not a magic equalizer, it is a performance enhancing drug. For example, it could make a 13:10 runner into a 12:55 runner and a 12:50 runner into a 12:40 runner, but not a 13:10 runner into a 12:40 runner.

I would be very careful regarding improvements with EPO especially in '90 without possible detection.

Claiming that 13:10 runner can't be 12:40 runner...

I personally know women runner in 800m which improve 6s - after test was available not during '90 and she take a juice just like that without scientific control or super knowledgeable doctor, so translate this to 5000m and you get?

Now, Jemima Sumgong, Olympic marathon winner and banned for EPO improved how much 6-7 min? Translate that on 5000m and during '90 without any possibility to be tested positive.

With a good doctor, Ferrari? you can improve even more, just my opinion.

These claims about EPO are fanstasy. No-one making these claims understands oxygen delivery and homeostasis. You can't exceed oxygen delivery in the way it is claimed in the EPO dogma. It's pure pseudoscience. The human body does not work like that.

I had to ask a few awkward questions over the last 27 about the supposed efficacy of EPO as a so called PED. No-one can or will answer those questions. Who here on this thread is actually interested in the physiology, let me know and sort the idiot trolls from the genuine posters.

rekrunner wrote:

This is also getting really old.

Once again, I never claimed I was Gary.

You're being trolled, just ignore anyone who calls you Gary.

pariah.....the alter ego of rekrunner, who is the alter ego of gary

i did link a 12 page paper from the american medical journal or something like that on EPO, and lots of test that were conducted, and the testing window and how altitude training greatly REDUCED the detection window for EPO, and that mirco dosing was UNDETECTABLE....but you deleted that because it was filled with the TRUTH.

I'm trying to teach a theory? That's good to know. I was unaware of that. I thought I was trying to "discuss" historical performances, and very different rates of progression among different groups. How do I teach "let's look at times faster than 1990" to someone who continues to bring examples of slower times? How do I teach "let's look at non-African progression" to someone who keeps bringing up Moroccans?

Teach, not a Teacher wrote:

rekrunner wrote:

I never claimed to be a teacher.

The point is that you are trying to teach your theory and failing miserably.

rekrunner wrote:

I'm trying to teach a theory? That's good to know. I was unaware of that.

I thought I was trying to "discuss" historical performances, and very different rates of progression among different groups.

How do I teach "let's look at times faster than 1990" to someone who continues to bring examples of slower times?

How do I teach "let's look at non-African progression" to someone who keeps bringing up Moroccans?

Teach, not a Teacher wrote:

The point is that you are trying to teach your theory and failing miserably.

Yep, you're trying to say EPO doesn't work with white people. Your " who me?" act is transparent.

weakermind wrote:

pariah.....the alter ego of rekrunner, who is the alter ego of gary

i did link a 12 page paper from the american medical journal or something like that on EPO, and lots of test that were conducted, and the testing window and how altitude training greatly REDUCED the detection window for EPO, and that mirco dosing was UNDETECTABLE....but you deleted that because it was filled with the TRUTH.

I'm not Gary either.

The problem with these beliefs in the efficacy of doping is that like any belief they can be completely wrong. Look at religion, is Jesus God? Well I put that question into the youtube search and lots of people believe Jesus was God. And in the past, in Britain it was something that you had to believe otherwise your life was in danger.

I don't believe in any so called Performance Enhancing Drugs. But back in the early 90s this problem really troubled me. Then I started asking awkward questions, which no-one wants to answer.

We run faster by being more energy efficient. It's really simple. Drugs or no drugs that's what it takes. I can't explain this to exercise physiologists, because they are fixated on dogmatic and ill informed beliefs. And they won't discuss this with me, because I expose their ignorance of the very things they are supposed to know.