Is The RunningLane Course 5K? Or Is It Short?

I am communicating with Sean Allen of RunningLane and I made the case that the course needs to be measured with a tape and that it would be best if RunningLane meet organizers oversaw the effort and reported the results. A lot of good will come from that if they do it. I'll let you know what he says.

DiscoGary wrote:

I am communicating with Sean Allen of RunningLane and I made the case that the course needs to be measured with a tape and that it would be best if RunningLane meet organizers oversaw the effort and reported the results. A lot of good will come from that if they do it. I'll let you know what he says.

Thanks for your efforts. I’m hoping any new measurements would include independent and experienced officials doing the actual work?

DiscoGary wrote:

I am communicating with Sean Allen of RunningLane and I made the case that the course needs to be measured with a tape and that it would be best if RunningLane meet organizers oversaw the effort and reported the results. A lot of good will come from that if they do it. I'll let you know what he says.

Thanks, DG!

A third party needs to be involved otherwise more doubt will continue.

rocky mtns wrote:

DiscoGary wrote:

I am communicating with Sean Allen of RunningLane and I made the case that the course needs to be measured with a tape and that it would be best if RunningLane meet organizers oversaw the effort and reported the results. A lot of good will come from that if they do it. I'll let you know what he says.

Thanks for your efforts. I’m hoping any new measurements would include independent and experienced officials doing the actual work?

Bingo!

I hope they tell everyone to go away and then start marketing the course for next year.

not a name wrote:

I hope they tell everyone to go away and then start marketing the course for next year.

It is a public course ,right?

Why wouldn't they want it certified?

rocky mtns wrote:

DiscoGary wrote:

I am communicating with Sean Allen of RunningLane and I made the case that the course needs to be measured with a tape and that it would be best if RunningLane meet organizers oversaw the effort and reported the results. A lot of good will come from that if they do it. I'll let you know what he says.

Thanks for your efforts. I’m hoping any new measurements would include independent and experienced officials doing the actual work?

Sure. An independent team should double check their work. They will know this might happen so I'm not concerned that they will game the numbers.

If RunningLane measures the course with a tape and reports their course length and measuring methodology in the meet program, then they will have effectively created a defacto national standard for measuring high school cross country courses because no one else will be able to claim that a record was run on their course until they measure it to the same accuracy as the Hunt course.

If DiscoGary and Ward Cleaver report a course length for Hunt and it gets backed up by the team of zzzzz and rocky mtns, then we have a good data point, but it won't carry the same weight as a measurement verified by the meet organizers.

We need to get to the point where the first question asked is not " how long is the course?", but "Has the course been measured with a tape?"

That RunningLane race is so high profile that we might get there if all the dominoes fall the right way.

I feel it should be certified by someone who is a USATF Course Certifier like David Katz. Being verified by the meet organizer seems fishy to me.

As a coach and someone that has three kids running, I've seen 11 courses on my kid's GPS watches and the RunningLane is frankly one of the longest. A couple of the 5k's we ran this year were more like 3 miles. Running Lane was over 3.11, which is a rarity on most XC courses at least here in the Mid-Atlantic and Northeast.

Man you really don't get it do you. GPS isn't accurate. End of story.

Agreed, But Dr Katz isn't volunteering to do it. The RunningLane people should be motivated to do this, and that will get the dominoes falling. Trust me, this is the right domino to push on first. If it falls then it will force the Michigan course dominoe to fall, and others will start falling. The last domino to fall will be the NFHS standard, unless someone has some pull there.

fyi - It's D. Katz or David Katz....not Dr. :)

Dr Katz shouldn't be measuring courses anyway because he's the one here who might have some pull at NFHS. That's where his energy is best spent.

D.Katz wrote:

fyi - It's D. Katz or David Katz....not Dr. :)

Nope. I'm sticking with Dr. Katz to give this thread some gravitas. We can't all be beer swilling amateurs.

Dr. Katz, Stat Geek PhD

We can look at hundreds of readings from Garmin Runninglane. It looks like the average is about 3.115. We can look at the readings rom a certified road race and have the average be 3.115. I run workouts on 2 road courses in my neighborhood so that I know where the miles are. Guess what? My watch beeps within 1 step of each mile every time and I have been doing it for years with 3 different watches. GPS isn't perfect but it is accurate to within a meter or 2.

Who certifies a wheel or a steel tape? What if the tape is low grade from China and is slightly off? Who maintains the master foot and meter stick in the world?

not a name wrote:

Who certifies a wheel or a steel tape? What if the tape is low grade from China and is slightly off? Who maintains the master foot and meter stick in the world?

A steel tape certifies the wheel.

The manufacturer certifies that the steel tape has a very small margin of error. They publish the expected margin of error.

The meter is defined as the distance a beam of light travels in a vacuum for 1 / 299 792 458 th of a second.

So you turn on a flashlight and start your stopwatch at the same time. Then after 1 / 299 792 458 th of a second has passed you mark how far the beam has traveled. And you now you have the perfect meter!

This is definitely getting out of hand.

I doubt if there will ever be a "certification" of cross country courses - only best practices for measuring.

USATF or World Athletics will never adopt one for the obvious reasons.

Measuring the entire course with a steel tape is very time consuming so you would want a protocol that will not turn people off and can be relatively easy to do.

My suggestions for the procedure that will produce a course of "reasonable accuracy":

1. Identify the boundaries of the course

2. Use a good measuring wheel. I use an electronic one that can read to a cm.

3. Create a calibration course- a long stretch on the XC course that is flat and at least 300m long.

4. Measure this segment using a steel tape applying the proper tension. Some might perform a temperature correction but I really don't think it's necessary. Measure the calibration course at least 2x clearly marking the beginning and the end (use long, think nails or spikes).

5. Calibrate the measuring wheel by WALKING the calibration course at least 4 times - now you know the offset.

6. Now that you have calibrated the measuring wheel, slowly walk the course following the shortest possible route (SPR) within 30 cm of the boundaries of the course....take notes for start, finish and intermediate points (landmarks are important). When done, do it again!!

7. Re-calibration. Normally this is essential for road course measurements because the tire could change it's diameter due to changes in temperature but it's also a good idea for the measuring wheel. A measuring wheel could get damaged (broken pin or other problems) and this will ensure everything is working properly.

I have been measuring tracks, roads, and cross country courses since 1976 and I truly believe that the above protocol is all that is necessary to achieve confidence in the accuracy of the course. One last note: my dad told me that they most dangerous part of a car is the nut behind the wheel! Whoever goes out to measure the course should have patience and take their time.