A closer look at EPO-era performances

It helps the Marathon just fine.

Subway Surfers Addiction wrote:

For the 800m it looks like you have added African Americans etc and Baala to your list. Not trying to sound at all racist but earlier on Rekrunner did say he counted Mo, Moroccans & Algerians etc running for France, Spain, Denmark etc as African. To me Cruz and Centro are multi ethnic so non African is fine there. Rekrunner would place Nijel Amos in the 5 Continents category.

Are you hinting that EPO is widespread in the 800m?

From the data I posted earlier on that particular group, i.e non Africans, I don’t think there is conclusive evidence that EPO use created any great drop in performance. That is for that group. If the same analysis were carried out for athletes from Africa, the findings are likely to be different. Certainly on the surface, the depth and frequency of fast 800 times by African men went through the roof in the 90’s. This would suggest that this group may have benefited from EPO use. I would think this likely.

That is not to say I think EPO has no benefit over 800. I believe it does, but obviously nowhere near as much as for say the 5000m.

I think 1 to 1.5sec is about right for a good responder. But this sort of drop in performance by the elite non African 800 guys as an average, did not seem to happen in the 90’s. This could be because that group of athletes didn’t take EPO, or it could be because EPO was no more effective than a combo of steroids and blood transfusions, or it could be that they did take EPO, and they did benefit from it, but the natural talent pool was no longer there in such depth as many moved away from T&F to football and other sports.

Personally I think it is a mixture of the above.

Yes there has been lots of doping by elites. That's not the question. The question is what leads to the improved performances over the years?

There is bound to be a natural progression.

With regard to the efficacy of EPO doping, none of the conventional wisdom on the subject is based on actual understanding of oxygen transport. It's based on belief that more red blood cells must transport more oxygen.

If this was true, it would lead to an increase in heat generation and glyconge use beyond normal levels. This goes against the concept of homeostasis, which few exercise physiologists will address because they either have no idea or they don't want to rock the boat.

So the conventional wisdom, which is not wisdom at all continues.

pariah wrote:

Yes there has been lots of doping by elites. That's not the question. The question is what leads to the improved performances over the years?

There is bound to be a natural progression.

With regard to the efficacy of EPO doping, none of the conventional wisdom on the subject is based on actual understanding of oxygen transport. It's based on belief that more red blood cells must transport more oxygen.

If this was true, it would lead to an increase in heat generation and glyconge use beyond normal levels. This goes against the concept of homeostasis, which few exercise physiologists will address because they either have no idea or they don't want to rock the boat.

So the conventional wisdom, which is not wisdom at all continues.

Thanks for your weekly repetition, Jon!

Reductionist to the extreme.

And wrong.

Grow up and stop trolling. And learn about homeostasis.

Reductionism is exactly what I'm against. But you know that. All you are doing is promoting drug use by insisting that the human body can exceed natural energy output. This is beyond thermoregulatory possibility, the human body does not work like that.

All we ever get is dumbed down pretend science on the issue of oxygen transport and everyone fall for it. I suppose it's too much to expect to get an intelligent debate here on lestsrun, but to any intelligent life out there, I ask you to look beyond the usual pseudoscience that effectively promotes doping whilst pretending to hold some sort of moral high ground on the issue and ignoring basic physiology.

Take your own advice, Jon. Your trolling is getting tired. It needs an injection of something to liven it up.

You have ZERO physiology background so stop pretending you know more than experts.

pariah wrote:

Yes there has been lots of doping by elites. That's not the question. The question is what leads to the improved performances over the years?

There is bound to be a natural progression.

1000m record set in 1999,

1500m record set in 1998,

Mile record set in 1999,

2000m record set in 1999,

3,000m record set in 1996,

2 mile record in 1997,

5000 record set in 2004,

10000 record set in 2005.

(Don't look at men's field event records, or women's sprint or field event records).

Subway Surfers Addiction wrote:

1000m record set in 1999,

1500m record set in 1998,

Mile record set in 1999,

2000m record set in 1999,

3,000m record set in 1996,

2 mile record in 1997,

5000 record set in 2004,

10000 record set in 2005.

(Don't look at men's field event records, or women's sprint or field event records).

Steeplechase record set in 2004 (actual WR was set by Boulami in 2002, which was flushed by his doping positive).

pariah wrote:

All we ever get is dumbed down pretend science on the issue of oxygen transport and everyone fall for it. I suppose it's too much to expect to get an intelligent debate here on lestsrun, but to any intelligent life out there, I ask you to look beyond the usual pseudoscience that effectively promotes doping whilst pretending to hold some sort of moral high ground on the issue and ignoring basic physiology.

Any reason why Jon increased O2 transport as a result of RBC infusion improved 10k running times to the tune of 69 seconds, on average, in this study?

They believed it would therefore they were able to exceed homeostasis and run faster. The belief also increased their efficiency and gave them really springy feet.

Everyone's looking for an edge wrote:

Subway Surfers Addiction wrote:

1000m record set in 1999,

1500m record set in 1998,

Mile record set in 1999,

2000m record set in 1999,

3,000m record set in 1996,

2 mile record in 1997,

5000 record set in 2004,

10000 record set in 2005.

(Don't look at men's field event records, or women's sprint or field event records).

Steeplechase record set in 2004 (actual WR was set by Boulami in 2002, which was flushed by his doping positive).

Probably all coincidences.

Placebo Mandingo wrote:

They believed it would therefore they were able to exceed homeostasis and run faster. The belief also increased their efficiency and gave them really springy feet.

Got it....?

Everyone's looking for an edge wrote:

Subway Surfers Addiction wrote:

1000m record set in 1999,

1500m record set in 1998,

Mile record set in 1999,

2000m record set in 1999,

3,000m record set in 1996,

2 mile record in 1997,

5000 record set in 2004,

10000 record set in 2005.

(Don't look at men's field event records, or women's sprint or field event records).

Steeplechase record set in 2004 (actual WR was set by Boulami in 2002, which was flushed by his doping positive).

Yes exactly, further evidence of human progression ?

Why EPO is not working in 800m, Marion Jones admitted EPO use as far as I know. So she was out of her mind, maybe?

Also regarding EPO, PED not working in Icarus movie guy increased his output from 250W to 349W.

Nothing to see there?

Of course this all should be addressed to rekrunner not you.

weak-mind disease in Africa wrote:

Why EPO is not working in 800m, Marion Jones admitted EPO use as far as I know. So she was out of her mind, maybe?

I think Jones tested positive for EPO in 05 or thereabouts. Here's some other sprinters caught using the sauce:

Here's Jones' case in 06 - I thought it was around that time frame:

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2006/aug/19/athletics.drugsinsport

"With regard to the efficacy of EPO doping, none of the conventional wisdom on the subject is based on actual understanding of oxygen transport. It's based on belief that more red blood cells must transport more oxygen.

If this was true, it would lead to an increase in heat generation and glyconge use beyond normal levels. This goes against the concept of homeostasis, which few exercise physiologists will address because they either have no idea or they don't want to rock the boat."

Just saving you the bother of trolling today, Jon!

Stay in bed.

Your Welcome

Cut and Paste responses wrote:

"With regard to the efficacy of EPO doping, none of the conventional wisdom on the subject is based on actual understanding of oxygen transport. It's based on belief that more red blood cells must transport more oxygen.

If this was true, it would lead to an increase in heat generation and glyconge use beyond normal levels. This goes against the concept of homeostasis, which few exercise physiologists will address because they either have no idea or they don't want to rock the boat."

Just saving you the bother of trolling today, Jon!

Stay in bed.

Your Welcome

Now you have to do one to cover rekrunner. Lol

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our LORD and SAVIOR RENATO has proven, and now the HOLY PROPHET, GARY REKRUNNER RADCLIFF continues the amazing gospel....

EPO AND PEDs DONT WORK!!!!!