More Kenyans busted

I am the only thing that interests you. You speak of nothing else. Show us where you have commented about the thread subject where it hasn't been pathetic attack against me. You can't. Absolute loser.

I have posted several times on this thread and even provided some information that I got from a European pro who trained in Kenya. So, as usual, you are lying.

And you are the loser here. You are losing hours of your life, every day, on the same threads, saying the same things, over and over again.

Different people will say different things. It's not contradictory to say (some) drugs don't work (for some events), and that there is a deep pool of talented Kenyans subject to testing.

So you may have experience elite performance experts saying altitude training alone can produce elite performances and world records, and you may have anti-doping experts looking at the who is being tested and who is not, lobbying for more money for more testing.

It is the AIU who gives us their reasons for the increase in targeting more Kenyans. For years Brett Clothier, and others have been saying the "top" Kenyans are well tested, but below the tip, there is a pyramid of hundreds, or thousands, of talented athletes running on the roads, winning races, who were not subject to OOC testing.

Regarding doping not working, speaking for myself, I took a long look at performance trends over the last few decades, and asked why doping in the EPO-era didn't appear to "work" to make more sea-level non-Africans faster, who were running just about as fast as their pre-EPO 1980s predecessors, with only a few marginal exceptions, up until 2018, before the widespread effect often attributed to new shoes. And if doping didn't help the fastest athletes for most of the elite distance running world over the course of three decades, why should we believe it worked for the fastest East Africans. I got a lot of creative (and sometimes conflicting) hypotheses.

Doping exists everywhere, because people everywhere fill in the gaps with religion when facts are missing.

But is distance running alone? Don't mistake my focus on distance running as evidence of a sole exception. In societies looking for solutions in a pill, people in all sports will try all sorts of cocktails of drugs and supplements based on an infomercial quality salespitch, without concrete evidence it will solve their performance problems. They will do it for other reasons than proven performance, like improving recovery, allowing them to train more, giving them hope. Or they will believe without evidence that others who are beating them are doping, so they need to dope too.

Going back to the conclusions of the study you didn't read, there is only well-designed evidence (the kind WADA experts rely on to ban drugs) for 5 classes of the 23 WADA banned classes of drugs, plus a 6th class on untrained subjects -- all showing benefit for strength and sprint performances, rather than endurance. (11 more classes have no well-designed studies, and 6 classes have evidence of absence of effect.)

Another meta-study comprehensively looked at blood doping and cycling, concluding that any benefits from EPO were over-estimated, and the researchers were unable to replicate any EPO benefit in a time-trail up the Mont Ventoux.

It may be that more drugs help more events, but we are just lacking robust observations, making the topic ripe for widespread beliefs and exploitation of desparate athletes. Then we need to rely on the word-of-mouth rumors of other athletes, some of which are known to be charismatic pathological liars.

Did you mean Brett Clothier? He is not an expert on how to produce elite performance.

I find that people are quick to use the word "know", when they mean "believe". Brett Clothier and the athletes share a common belief.

No one argues otherwise -- Kenya has a serious problem with the number of their athletes doping, though according to Clothier, it is not as bad as Russia or India.

The population of the country is the relative number for you here? Not the number of athletes the country has? Astonishing. Well, not for someone who knows your posting history.

The subject is not matter of opinion - you obviously don't know the meaning of opinion. Many Kenyans dope - thanks for this contribution to hundreds of threads. Nobody would have known it otherwise.

What about giving concrete numbers to Kenyans who dope compared to the number of athletes? Number of tests? Which doping? Why are there almost no positives from Ethiopia? What about Kenyan success right from their start to compete internationally? And so on.

But there will be not much more than doping doping doping.

You can't know what this "loser" says to the thread topic.

But for sure there wouldn't be anything bad for just pointing on the nonsense of other posters. But I know, for you, writing wrong "facts" is a better contributing to something than correcting this.

You joking, right? Brett Clothier knows a lot more about the doping elite than you, Mr. Pretend Elite Performance Producer. Hahahahahaha. If you were serious: dream on.

Nothing suggests he has any special knowledge of elite performance. His background appears to be as a lawyer, and not as a researcher or an elite coach. His formation is working with the Australian Football League -- a group of athletes not particularly known for their marathon times.

I'm sure he knows a lot about sports integrity, and setting up organizations to perform integrity monitoring and enforcement, but these are different areas of expertise.

You shouldn't be fooled by appealing to false authorities on topics outside their area of expertise. In any case, I am not.

I don't ever pretend to produce elite performance, but rather listen to those who have experience producing elite athlete performance. I do have sufficient expertise to know when factual evidence and observations are insufficient to logically draw some conclusions, no matter how popular and widespread the belief is.

As you are doing.The user name you have is given only to your weak personal attacks. You can't show otherwise.

You have just given an opinion and one that, to me, adds nothing of any value to the thread. I dispute with those who seek to deny, minimise or excuse Kenyan doping. You don't read well enough to see they populate these doping threads. Your questions are irrelevant detail. I don't care about Ethiopia in a discussion about Kenya. They don't add anything to the basic fact that Kenyan doping is amongst the worst in the sport. I don't give a sh*t for the reasons why - like posters blaming "foreign agents".

I didn't say it is the only relevant number (I assume your misuse of "relative" means that) but as a point of comparison it shows the gross mismatch proportionally between Kenyan and Indian doping violations. Your point about the number of runners doesn't change that. It just suggests that cheating is more typical for Kenyan runners. In any case, India will have more athletes than Kenya as it has over a billion people to Kenya's 50 million or so. Your merely grasping at straws to try to minimise Kenyan cheating.

You do nothing but argue against the seriousness of Kenya doping, trying to suggest they are just like any other country. Always lying.

Wrong again. I come here for a few minutes twice a day. And I don't attack you. I state facts. If you feel attacked by facts it's because you don't like being faced with them.

In 2023, India sent 28 athletes to the World Championship, their highest count ever, and won 1 Gold medal, in the Men's Javelin.

Kenya sent 52 athletes, winning 10 WC medals: 3 Gold, 3 Silver, and 3 Bronze.

Recall Brett Clothier of the AIU talks about a pyramid of Kenyan talent numbering hundreds, if not thousands, just below the world class, who were escaping OOC testing, and were racing and winning money on the roads, as their is no money on the track, not to mention the World Championship entrants are limited.

It would seem the gross mismatch in proportionality of doping to number of athletes clearly belongs to India. Despite a pool of "over a billion people", and a bigger doping problem then Kenya, India seems to have about half the world class athletes of the much smaller nation of Kenya, not counting Kenyans much deeper pool of talented runners.

This raises the question then, similar to the Russians, why isn't doping working for India? Like the Russians, wouldn't these doped Indians also possess knowledge and experience of doping's power of performance?

Don't delude yourself. These are not mutually exclusive. To assess the seriousness, I simply try to follow the data, and often there is simply no data to follow.

Recall we saw unofficial IAAF blood data from 2000-2012 that Kenyan and Ethiopian blood doping suspicion, as a percentage of blood tests, was significantly below the world average, with both East African nations ranking outside the top-10. This undermines any notion that EPO, or other blood doping, was responsible for the East African success in those years.

I also follow the AIU when they tell us that the Kenyan problem is unique and is made more serious due to factors like lack of anti-doping education and awareness, and exploitation by foreign coaches and agents as well as local doctors and pharmacists, trying to cash in on exploiting the deep pyramid of talent that exists in Kenya.

The AIU told us that they were increasing the OOC testing pools to include more second and third tier athletes, and increasing the testing requirements for all Kenyans, by virtue of declaring them a Category A country. Without detailed prevalence data, broken down by country (and even further by level of talent) there is no way to tell if Kenyan doping, as a percentage of athletes, is worse than the world average, or if the increase in busts is simply due to increasing the pool of athletes subject to testing, disproportionally targeting East African distance runners.

This is not arguing that Kenyan doping prevalence is average, but simply pointing out that there is no normalized prevelance data, as a percentage of athletes, to follow, for those who are inclined to follow the data.

I havn't given an opinion. As said, you don't know the meaning of this word.

Yes, I used the wrong word.

For sure the population of the country is not the relevant number here (or: is completely irrelevant), but the number of athletes.

How many athletes at the different levels does India have compared to Kenya? Give those numbers if you want to contribute something to the question.

Over a billion when it's almost 1.5 billion...