A closer look at EPO-era performances

This doesn't change anything. Using your "proper" scientific comparison, East Africans would show something like a 26 second improvement compared to your non-African 10 seconds. You still have a significantly lower quantity of significantly lower quality performances coming from non-Africans. And 4 of them coming after the ABP in 2009, from a country with OOC testing.

Subway Surfers Addiction wrote:

This is all rather tiresome, a proper scientific comparison would be like for like, the top 5 European average pre & post 1990. Back on page 3 (I think) I pointed out that the pre-1990 top 5 were Aouita (12:58), Moorcroft (13:00), Maree (13:01/2), Yobes (13:04), Rono (13:06). There was only one non-African in the list. The next best whiteys were the Swiss guy, Antibo then who? Cova? Quax (13:12). Compare it to a post 1990 group of 5/6, Baumann, Mottram, Ritz, Kennedy, Solinsky, Rupp and their average is like 12:56 or something. A 10 second improvement.

Yeah I double checked and got 13:02.078. You should double check. I know how desperate you are to prove SPAIN is powerful thanks to EPO, but even if we used your 13:03.46, this bumps up "quantity" by a couple, but the resulting quality for Garcia would be a very low 0.117%. Hardly worth any superlative you usually respond with. During this " period where the EPO test hadn't been implemented yet & athletes could dope with impunity", only 2 non-Africans ran faster, by less than 1%. Or 3, if we use your relaxed benchmark, by less than 1.1%, and non of them are SPANISH.

You sure like to dart all over the map, moving goalposts and changing subjects. Just rest assured that EPO works and you can save yourself a lot of useless number crunching.

It raises basic ability. All of the peculation about times, color of people etc. mean nothing compared to that.

The Spaniards just focused on and doped for the Marathon in the 90s.

I just did and got 13:03.463 ?

I have no idea why you think I'm "desperate to prove SPAIN is powerful thanks to EPO." My point with Espana is that they demonstrated significant improvement in times with EPO/blood doping and became competitive in Olympic/WC/EC events. Tell me where they were before 1990?

What's this got to due with Baumann? And I mentioned athletes "could" dope with impunity - how do you know that many non-Africans didn't want to dope or used lesser amounts?

rekrunner wrote:

The wrong answer about times is a paper about VO2max (that incidentally doesn't show "higher VO2max = faster times")

Joyner's paper explains that "although it is clear that blood doping improves performance, it is unclear how widespread it was in the 1970s and 1980s...." Improves performance = faster times.

Here's another one for you:

RBC infusion = higher hematocrit concentration = significantly faster 10k run (median of 1 min 9 secs).

Try reading the full text for once.

I'm always moving the goalposts back to where I started -- what EPO did (or didn't do) for non-Africans.

cut to the chase wrote:

You sure like to dart all over the map, moving goalposts and changing subjects. Just rest assured that EPO works and you can save yourself a lot of useless number crunching.

It raises basic ability. All of the peculation about times, color of people etc. mean nothing compared to that.

The Spaniards just focused on and doped for the Marathon in the 90s.

dear gawd, this page is now again back up to 28 pages again. brojos can you DELETE this entire thread? i am sick and tired of this rekrunner annoyance.

he rambles with bullsh*t and people who show him he is wrong get their replies deleted, and further i have lost the ability to use my handle

"mindweak"

and

"m!ndweak"

so now i am using

"weakermind"

enough with this annoying quoting within quotes arguing against FACTS and getting people deleted and handles being stolen, really its annoying. just DELETE this entire thread PLEASE

Have someone else check it.

Rocket Fuel Rick wrote:

rekrunner wrote:

Yeah I double checked and got 13:02.078. You should double check.

I just did and got 13:03.463 ?

rekrunner wrote:

I'm always moving the goalposts back to where I started -- what EPO did (or didn't do) for non-Africans.

cut to the chase wrote:

You sure like to dart all over the map, moving goalposts and changing subjects. Just rest assured that EPO works and you can save yourself a lot of useless number crunching.

It raises basic ability. All of the peculation about times, color of people etc. mean nothing compared to that.

The Spaniards just focused on and doped for the Marathon in the 90s.

Non African pre 1990 average = 13:05.36

Non African post 1990 average = 12:56.01

= 9.35 or 1.19%

Subway Surfers Addiction wrote:

Non African pre 1990 average = 13:05.36

Non African post 1990 average = 12:56.01

= 9.35 or 1.19%

Yes. Or, decade by decade for non-African born male 5000 m runners, averaged over top-5 times (feel free to check the stats):

1960s: 13:22.5 -> some steroids, very few blood "dopers"

1970s: 13:12.3 -> -10s; unlimited blood transfusions + primitive steroids

1980s: 13:04.9 -> -7s; height of cold war doping era, unlimited blood transfusions, steroids virtually undetectable

1990s: 12:59.2 -> -6s; unlimited EPO, begin serious steroid testing

2000s: 12:56.3 -> -3s; begin EPO testing, partial ABP

2010s: 12:57.7 -> +2s; full ABP incl. steroid module - but still 2 years to go

Maybe I'll do the same for 800 later, to see whether the roid vs. EPO results shifted...

rekrunner wrote:

I'm always moving the goalposts back to where I started -- what EPO did (or didn't do) for non-Africans.

cut to the chase wrote:

You sure like to dart all over the map, moving goalposts and changing subjects. Just rest assured that EPO works and you can save yourself a lot of useless number crunching.

It raises basic ability. All of the peculation about times, color of people etc. mean nothing compared to that.

The Spaniards just focused on and doped for the Marathon in the 90s.

It made them faster at the endurance events they retreated to. That's already been answered.

The ones who remained and doped with EPO got faster. Many of them were only B level athletes who then sniffed the A level. You need to stop assuming that the only evidence is what happens at the top level.

This is not rocket scientry.

Now that EPO has ben cracked down on the Africans have eased back their performances to their natural potential. That has given whitey's hope that they can contend again.

Serious question here - is rekrunner a moderator? I've had several posts deleted here - not hostile or antagonistic type, just information on topic. I've noticed things deleted more on the threads that she/he is active on - mainly doping threads ("weakmind" or whatever he is now has had all of his posts deleted - even the ones with pertinent info). Since the mods never identify themselves when they delete, I wonder if rekrunner is a mod? And rekrunner has been posting actively for years on this site (Serious question - not trolling).

rekrunner wrote:

- only 8 non-African runners ever have run faster than the top-5 pre-EPO average of 13:02.08, during the EPO-era (or rather during 28 years post 1990).

Good God, would you please just shut the fúck up. Pretty please with a giant pile of your own steaming, endless búllshít on top, just cease and desist from your dismally stupid quest.

Everyone here with the slightest understanding of statistics -- except you, obviously -- recognizes that the garbage I quoted above, and the wealth of trash just like it, is nothing more than you trying to game the parameters of the problem with bizarre cut-off points and sample sizes and, even better, changing the whole scheme in response to every challenge.

You would fúcking fail a basic probability exam in a college-level stats class if you tried any of this nonsense. Jesus, you could do independent sample t-tests looking at top-50 lists worldwide from 1500 too 5K using 1989 for the base year and any year thereafter as your alternative hypothesis year. It would be clean and consistent. Instead you have to fúck around endlessly for reasons known only to the swingers of the miniature tack-hammers slam-slam-slamming away at every nook and cranny your tortured mind.

I mean, I would get it if there were something tangible or even plausible in this for you. I'd understand why you won't stand down if you were trying to fleece people of money somehow. Of if you were attention-whoring in real life. Instead, you seem almost sexually driven to find sham conclusions and fuel them with bad premises.

Please, just fúck this thread. For good.

Thank you. Now hopefully he sees the light and Jon Orange has several overtime shifts stocking the shelves of Marks and Spencer and forgets he was trolling this thread.

Seemed to work for that soratos kid, ran 3:55 his senior year and hasn't done anything since.

goal post chaser wrote:

It made them faster at the endurance events they retreated to. That's already been answered.

The ones who remained and doped with EPO got faster. Many of them were only B level athletes who then sniffed the A level. You need to stop assuming that the only evidence is what happens at the top level.

+1 Bingo

That's the whole problem with "rekrunner" just focusing on the top level. That would be fine if all elite runners had the same physiological attributes and talent level. But there's a wide variation within the abilities of elites - that why some make it to a major competition final while others can't get passed the prelims. And like you said how many B runners have made it to the next level through the use of EPO. And how many runners have improved enough with EPO to advance to a final of a major competition when they wouldn't have even been capable of making it to the semi's clean. And how many runners have obtained the Olympic/WC "A" standard with the help of EPO who couldn't have achieved that milestone clean. There are so many different situations that can be illustrated.

rekrunner also doesn't understand that genetic and environmental factors play a part in which PEDs work well on some athletes and not so well with others.

rekrunner needs a reality check.

casual obsever wrote:

Subway Surfers Addiction wrote:

Non African pre 1990 average = 13:05.36

Non African post 1990 average = 12:56.01

= 9.35 or 1.19%

Yes. Or, decade by decade for non-African born male 5000 m runners, averaged over top-5 times (feel free to check the stats):

1960s: 13:22.5 -> some steroids, very few blood "dopers"

1970s: 13:12.3 -> -10s; unlimited blood transfusions + primitive steroids

1980s: 13:04.9 -> -7s; height of cold war doping era, unlimited blood transfusions, steroids virtually undetectable

1990s: 12:59.2 -> -6s; unlimited EPO, begin serious steroid testing

2000s: 12:56.3 -> -3s; begin EPO testing, partial ABP

2010s: 12:57.7 -> +2s; full ABP incl. steroid module - but still 2 years to go

Maybe I'll do the same for 800 later, to see whether the roid vs. EPO results shifted...

Pretty much spot on summary.

The 1960s times would be skewed by Ron Clarke.

The 1970s? I thought it was slower.

The 1980s-2010s look correct. Epo, hgh and whatever Nike HQ is up to looks 1% faster than blood transfusions and maybe roids in the 1980s.

If you repeat the same for Kenyans, Ethiopians and Moroccans (especially the later since the ABP) it is also revealing.

Serious answer, no. If real on-topic information was deleted, that's tragic.

Inquiring minds want to know wrote:

Serious question here - is rekrunner a moderator? I've had several posts deleted here - not hostile or antagonistic type, just information on topic. I've noticed things deleted more on the threads that she/he is active on - mainly doping threads ("weakmind" or whatever he is now has had all of his posts deleted - even the ones with pertinent info). Since the mods never identify themselves when they delete, I wonder if rekrunner is a mod? And rekrunner has been posting actively for years on this site (Serious question - not trolling).

Since so many people insist on engaging with me, this must be a worthy topic of interest. It takes two to tango. I don't force anyone to click and and read or comment. You should know by now what to expect before you click on the thread, so I have to ask, why are you complaining? If no one cares what I say or think, why do so many people care what I say or think? I'm curious, what kind of college level stats, with non-bizzare cutoff points and sample sizes, would show that EPO works at the top for East Africans, like it does for everybody else? Would it give a different result than my simpler cut-off, suddenly showing a large gain for non-African populations? What is the evidentiary or statistical basis for comments like "EPO just makes everyone faster in their event", if significant populations asymptotically plateaud during the EPO-era. At some point you have to cross-check theories and conclusions with real world data.