But not for non-African distance runners, who did not see massive improvements at all after 1990.
Subway Surfers Addiction wrote:
rekrunner wrote:
That's not what historical performances tell us...
What? It is exactly what the historical evidence tell us cycling, running, biathlons, speed skating, cross country skiing, rowing, triathlons (and Ironman competitions) all saw sudden massive improvements c1993/1994.
Because they gave up. That has already been addressed. Pull your head out of that dark place.
Right when they needed it most, whitey performances were already slumping due to crappy training. The Africans were training harder and doping like crazy. Doping helps training too as you and Jon wellknow(see what I did there?)
Incredible hypothesis -- ALL of the best non-Africans, except Spain, and Paula, gave up in distance running, but not in cycling, biathlons, speed skating, cross country skiing, rowing, triathlons (and Ironman competitions), because all endurance events benefit in the same manner, despite never doubting EPO works as much as 3-4%. Got it, thanks.
runimentary physiology wrote:
Because they gave up. That has already been addressed. Pull your head out of that dark place.
Right when they needed it most, whitey performances were already slumping due to crappy training. The Africans were training harder and doping like crazy. Doping helps training too as you and Jon wellknow(see what I did there?)
rekrunner wrote:
The main question was "why so few non-Africans, and by so little?", compared to 1990, when there was EPO, and EPO works. Why so few Spanish?
Studies that show an increase in red blood cells or VO2max are the wrong answer.
Why so few Spanish tested postitive or why so few Spanish that didn't run near the super fast African times you're obsessed with? Consider that it could be dose related i.e., keeping the doses toned down to reduce the risk of glowing IC but still getting acceptable benefits. Notice how the Africans have a significant number of IC positives vs the Spanairds (e.g., Estévez, Bezabeh & Fernandez never tested positive...they were all caught up in Galgo). And the higher the Hct - a corresponding linear improvement is seen with VO2max:
http://bjsm.bmj.com/content/37/3/190.shortHigher doses = higher Hct = higher VO2max = faster times.
Secondly, I'm not sure why you think Estévez's PB is pack fodder. "3:30.57" may not be El G warp-speed type stuff but in looking at the 8000+ deep all-time list, his time is 161st fastest or top 2%. Same with Bezabeh's 12:57.25...top 2%. OTOH, Domínguez was on fire running the 32nd fastest all-time steeple (9:07.32) when she won gold at the 09 WCs (the medal & time were flushed due to an ABP sanction for hematological anomalies).
And the Spanish marathon domination in the 1990s WC competitions? Time trial experiments with EPO, designed dosages, "incredible" results:
http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/athletics-suspicion-clouds-spanish-victory-1118336.html? "He had the training programmes, the tests, the results, the analysis and the dosages of EPO. He even showed me tests on the best in the country. He compared the time trial tests of these athletes on the track before and after taking EPO. The difference was incredible."
I think you're caught up in the "one-size-fits-all" of EPO doping. You seem to have this ideology that O2-vector doping is ineffective if the athlete isn't running African warp-speed type times. ?
rekrunner wrote:
Incredible hypothesis -- ALL of the best non-Africans, except Spain, and Paula, gave up in distance running, but not in cycling, biathlons, speed skating, cross country skiing, rowing, triathlons (and Ironman competitions), because all endurance events benefit in the same manner, despite never doubting EPO works as much as 3-4%.
Got it, thanks.
runimentary physiology wrote:
Because they gave up. That has already been addressed. Pull your head out of that dark place.
Right when they needed it most, whitey performances were already slumping due to crappy training. The Africans were training harder and doping like crazy. Doping helps training too as you and Jon wellknow(see what I did there?)
Excellent!
Yep, that's pretty much it. People/nations get drawn to the events they feel they have their best shot at or best suits their typical physiology. It's also whatever events are currently fashionable in a country.
You will note that NONE of the other events you listed have a current African presence. You go where they ain't.
And here I thought you were a complete idiot.
Well, I'm happy to see you acknowledge that you were wrong. But how can we confirm the "hypothesis" that all non-Africans, for decades, simply lacked the confidence in themselves, and EPO, to overcome the superior performance gap with East and North Africans?
Well done! wrote:
Excellent!
Yep, that's pretty much it. People/nations get drawn to the events they feel they have their best shot at or best suits their typical physiology. It's also whatever events are currently fashionable in a country.
You will note that NONE of the other events you listed have a current African presence. You go where they ain't.
And here I thought you were a complete idiot.
Forget super fast African times, why so few Spanish running faster compared to pre-1990, before the super-fast African times? Why so few Spanish faster than other non-Africans? When you say "it could be", is this just your own personal speculation? How could you glow IC before EPO tests existed? The wrong answer about times is a paper about VO2max (that incidentally doesn't show "higher VO2max = faster times")
Rocket Fuel Rick wrote:
rekrunner wrote:
The main question was "why so few non-Africans, and by so little?", compared to 1990, when there was EPO, and EPO works. Why so few Spanish?
Studies that show an increase in red blood cells or VO2max are the wrong answer.
Why so few Spanish tested postitive or why so few Spanish that didn't run near the super fast African times you're obsessed with? Consider that it could be dose related i.e., keeping the doses toned down to reduce the risk of glowing IC but still getting acceptable benefits. Notice how the Africans have a significant number of IC positives vs the Spanairds (e.g., Estévez, Bezabeh & Fernandez never tested positive...they were all caught up in Galgo). And the higher the Hct - a corresponding linear improvement is seen with VO2max:
Higher doses = higher Hct = higher VO2max = faster times.
Secondly, I'm not sure why you think Estévez's PB is pack fodder. "3:30.57" may not be El G warp-speed type stuff but in looking at the 8000+ deep all-time list, his time is 161st fastest or top 2%. Same with Bezabeh's 12:57.25...top 2%. OTOH, Domínguez was on fire running the 32nd fastest all-time steeple (9:07.32) when she won gold at the 09 WCs (the medal & time were flushed due to an ABP sanction for hematological anomalies).
And the Spanish marathon domination in the 1990s WC competitions? Time trial experiments with EPO, designed dosages, "incredible" results:
? "He had the training programmes, the tests, the results, the analysis and the dosages of EPO. He even showed me tests on the best in the country. He compared the time trial tests of these athletes on the track before and after taking EPO. The difference was incredible."
I think you're caught up in the "one-size-fits-all" of EPO doping. You seem to have this ideology that O2-vector doping is ineffective if the athlete isn't running African warp-speed type times. ?
No. Does yours? Which "couple of extreme outliers"?
Well done! wrote:
Dang! Your mum bake retard cookies every single day?
Many white runners stated that they felt like giving up in the mid 90s.
You can confirm it by looking at the dearth of top white runners, doped or otherwise.
It wasn't "all". It was all but a couple of extreme outliers.
But none of this has anything to do with whether EPO works to a significant degree.
rekrunner wrote:
No. Does yours? Which "couple of extreme outliers"?
Well done! wrote:
Dang! Your mum bake retard cookies every single day?
Many white runners stated that they felt like giving up in the mid 90s.
You can confirm it by looking at the dearth of top white runners, doped or otherwise.
It wasn't "all". It was all but a couple of extreme outliers.
But none of this has anything to do with whether EPO works to a significant degree.
Well stop buying them at Jon's Bakery then.
Kennedy, Baumann. There's two.
Compared to 1990, Baumann ran 12:54.70, only 0.9% faster than the pre-1990 mark of 13:02.08. Baumann would be 8th North African and 39th East African That is EXTREME!
Well done! wrote:
Kennedy, Baumann. There's two.
rekrunner wrote:
Compared to 1990, Baumann ran 12:54.70, only 0.9% faster than the pre-1990 mark of 13:02.08.
Baumann would be 8th North African and 39th East African
That is EXTREME!
Well done! wrote:
Kennedy, Baumann. There's two.
Correct. And who ran 13:02?
See page 1.
Wejo said..."But now we were heading straight for the finish, and the world record was definitely going to be hers. I quickly told Paula that was it for me, and wished her luck, truly amazed with what she was doing. Once we hit the 25 mile marker, I started jogging with a big smile on my face. My job was done, Paula would smash the record, and I could enjoy the final mile.
And I definitely enjoyed it. The marathon is a lot more enjoyable when you can jog it home. Once I started jogging, I began to wonder how slow I'd run it. For I figured if I had gone this far, I might as well get under the Olympic Trials "A" qualifying time of 2:20:00, but I wasn't going to pick it up from my jog. The only good thing is after you've run 25 miles at 5:15 pace, a "jog" apparently is around 6 minute pace. So I finished in 2:18:10 and got a marathon pr to boot.
As for my own "race", or whatever you want to call it, it was definitely the highlight of my year for 2 reasons. First, 2002 had been very frustrating for me in terms of my own running and I thought my comeback from injury was progressing very slowly. But I was surprised with how good I felt during the marathon, and ended up even setting a pr. It confirmed to me that I can run a lot faster in the marathon. (Whoops. That never happened. Oh well. Bad prediction...just like Johnny Kellogg saying that Eliud Kipchoge would run between 19.75 and 20.0 miles at 2:00 marathon pace in the Nike Sub-2 project. This was a VERY PRECISE...and VERY WRONG PREDICTION... BECAUSE IT HAD A MARGIN OF ERROR OF ABOUT 5 MILES. SOGGY CORN FLAKES JOHNNY KELLOG WAS ONLY OFF BY ABOUT 25%!)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZsmrY3zPXSE
...And secondly Chicago was a highlight of my year, because I got to do my little part to help make history. Paula Radcliffe is simple (sic) an amazing athlete.
It's almost like she doesn't even get TIRED during the marathon. (Ha Ha Ha)
I don't doubt for a second that she could have set the world record without any male escorts, that's how good she is. But nonetheless, after the race, her and her husband Gary must have thanked me a thousand times for doing what the race had paid me to do.
"That meant a lot to me."
http://www.letsrun.com/2003/escortingpaula.php
https://news.sky.com/story/radcliffe-give-athletes-lie-detector-tests-10340201
http://i4.irishmirror.ie/incoming/article6915888.ece/ALTERNATES/s1200/PaulaMain.jpg
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/article-4467504/Paula-Radcliffe-sue-world-records-erased.html
http://www2.pictures.gi.zimbio.com/2007+World+Athletics+Gala+bVvZN8YHBSjx.jpg
happy coincidence
destroying native running by out doping you into submission
rekrunner wrote:
See page 1.
Yes, and?
Hilarious that you don't consider the fastest white man ever and holding that position for 20 years is not an extreme outlier.
... you'll find the answer to your question. I'm reminded of the conversation way back around page 8, of statistical significance in small sample sizes. Let's take another closer look, with numbers, at what you consider EXTREME. Besides 0.9%, improvement for Baumann, on page 1, we find: - only 8 non-African runners ever have run faster than the top-5 pre-EPO average of 13:02.08, during the EPO-era (or rather during 28 years post 1990). - 4 of them were Americans, notably after the ABP in 2009. - None of them were Spanish, SPAIN being one of the biggest believers in EPO, and 5000m being an event where VO2max is important. Compare that to Dave Moorcroft running 13:00.41 way back in 1982. Running 5-6 seconds faster, 15 years later, seems like a rather unordinary progression, not something EXTREME -- especially in the EPO-era. 15 years earlier, Ron Clarke's 5000m was 16 seconds slower. And ... for all you know, Baumann could have run 12:54.70 CLEAN! He was only busted for steroids (not EPO) 2 years later, when he was running slower times like 13:13 and 13:18.
you almost get it wrote:
rekrunner wrote:
See page 1.
Yes, and?
Hilarious that you don't consider the fastest white man ever and holding that position for 20 years is not an extreme outlier.
rekrunner wrote:
Besides 0.9%, improvement for Baumann, on page 1, we find:
- only 8 non-African runners ever have run faster than the top-5 pre-EPO average of 13:02.08, during the EPO-era (or rather during 28 years post 1990).
- 4 of them were Americans, notably after the ABP in 2009.
- None of them were Spanish, SPAIN being one of the biggest believers in EPO, and 5000m being an event where VO2max is important.
Compare that to Dave Moorcroft running 13:00.41 way back in 1982. Running 5-6 seconds faster, 15 years later, seems like a rather unordinary progression, .
[/quote]
I personally think suspicions of Coe & Ovett on here are an exaggeration (though worth debating) but Moorcroft in 1982 has red flags all over it. Here was a guy that had run 5,000m numerous times, all in the 13:20-30 range with 13:21 being his best. Then suddenly he drops out a 13 flat time, with no competition or quality pacing. A 20s improvement in one race, yet he never got near that time ever again. Smells similar to Paula.
rekrunner wrote:
And ... for all you know, Baumann could have run 12:54.70 CLEAN! He was only busted for steroids (not EPO) 2 years later, when he was running slower times like 13:13 and 13:18.
]
If by clean, you really mean a Bombay sewer.
rekrunner wrote:
Besides 0.9%, improvement for Baumann, on page 1, we find:
- only 8 non-African runners ever have run faster than the top-5 pre-EPO average of 13:02.08, during the EPO-era (or rather during 28 years post 1990).
- 4 of them were Americans, notably after the ABP in 2009.
The top-5 pre-EPO (
Rocket Fuel Rick wrote:
rekrunner wrote:
Besides 0.9%, improvement for Baumann, on page 1, we find:
- only 8 non-African runners ever have run faster than the top-5 pre-EPO average of 13:02.08, during the EPO-era (or rather during 28 years post 1990).
- 4 of them were Americans, notably after the ABP in 2009.
The top-5 pre-EPO (
This is all rather tiresome, a proper scientific comparison would be like for like, the top 5 European average pre & post 1990. Back on page 3 (I think) I pointed out that the pre-1990 top 5 were Aouita (12:58), Moorcroft (13:00), Maree (13:01/2), Yobes (13:04), Rono (13:06). There was only one non-African in the list. The next best whiteys were the Swiss guy, Antibo then who? Cova? Quax (13:12). Compare it to a post 1990 group of 5/6, Baumann, Mottram, Ritz, Kennedy, Solinsky, Rupp and their average is like 12:56 or something. A 10 second improvement.
