A closer look at EPO-era performances

[quote]rekrunner wrote:

And we are back to Morocco as an answer to non-African response to EPO.[quote]No...I just gave you the best & most profound demonstration of 02-vector doping with one very small country that happens to be geographically located in the NW portion of Africa. You keep deflecting to the non-African question and trying to use that as substance that 02-vector doping is ineffective for distance running. If I recall correctly, "Coevett" gave you some plausible reasons as to the non-African concerns that you're obsessed with.

pariah wrote:

Lance Armsrong, the man who rode up Alpe d'Huez at 7 watts per kilo>

Except it wasn't 7 it was 6 watts per kilo. But hey 7 sounds better, we'll go with 7 because that's how journalism works right?

Just make up any old bullshit, eventually enough of it will stick. EPO doping increases oxygen uptake, everyone knows that, so it must be true

It is not deflection to bring it back on topic. In context, Spain was offered as an answer of non-Africans who believed (go back and read the previous page). Coevett, to his credit, understood the question and gave me reasons -- at least he stayed on topic, and responded with an answer. I don't disagree with his reasons, but think that these are only partial answers. Everytime you bring up Ramzi and North Africans (and similarly 800m or cycling or racewalking or skiiing)-- you are deflecting, and obfuscating, and answering a question I didn't ask.

Rocket Fuel Rick wrote:

rekrunner wrote:

And we are back to Morocco as an answer to non-African response to EPO.

No...I just gave you the best & most profound demonstration of 02-vector doping with one very small country that happens to be geographically located in the NW portion of Africa. You keep deflecting to the non-African question and trying to use that as substance that 02-vector doping is ineffective for distance running. If I recall correctly, "Coevett" gave you some plausible reasons as to the non-African concerns that you're obsessed with.

Could you reiterate exactly what you are looking for in Non Africans?

Tour da Lance wrote:

pariah wrote:

Lance Armsrong, the man who rode up Alpe d'Huez at 7 watts per kilo>

Except it wasn't 7 it was 6 watts per kilo. But hey 7 sounds better, we'll go with 7 because that's how journalism works right?

Just make up any old bullshit, eventually enough of it will stick. EPO doping increases oxygen uptake, everyone knows that, so it must be true

https://i0.wp.com/www.sportsscientists.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/Tour-winner-power-to-weight.pnghttp://sportsscientists.com/2009/07/tour-de-france-2009-power-estimates/

Like I said, just make up any old bullshit. Make up some fantastic numbers, that's what everyone wants, right?

A more accurate number would be obtained by looking at at how he rode the climb in 2001 and 2004 and if you are honest and realistic you will get 6.0 to 6.1.

Does Ross Tucker actually care either way? Is it worth a separate thread? Does anyone really care, or is mythologizing what people are looking for?

pariah wrote:

Tour da Lance wrote:

https://i0.wp.com/www.sportsscientists.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/Tour-winner-power-to-weight.pnghttp://sportsscientists.com/2009/07/tour-de-france-2009-power-estimates/

Like I said, just make up any old bullshit. Make up some fantastic numbers, that's what everyone wants, right?

A more accurate number would be obtained by looking at at how he rode the climb in 2001 and 2004 and if you are honest and realistic you will get 6.0 to 6.1.

Does Ross Tucker actually care either way? Is it worth a separate thread? Does anyone really care, or is mythologizing what people are looking for?

If you were honest and realistic you would see that EPO works. And it works damned well.

Sure, Ross Tucker cares that people cheat by doping. Not worth a separate thread. All those who care about clean sport care. No, they are not looking for mythology so I'm not sure why you keep spinning your myth here?

Are you hoping to profit somehow by chanting your denial for the last 27 years?

I am trying to point out how people believe pseudoscience. Oxygen delivery doesn't work in the way the blood boost dogma would have you believe. You can't ignore homeostasis if you wish to put forward an argument.

Really what we are arguing about is the belief in magic potions that give super human strength.

Can you not see why I would point out to you that that is the stuff of fairy tales, not real science?

Can you not understand that superior performance is the result of superior energy efficiency, which is real actualy science and not some mirculous transformation of metabolic ouptput which is not real science?

Hasn't Ross Tucker himself pointed this out? I see he leaves the question open in the above debate from 2009.

pariah wrote:

I am trying to point out how people believe pseudoscience. Oxygen delivery doesn't work in the way the blood boost dogma would have you believe. You can't ignore homeostasis if you wish to put forward an argument.

Really what we are arguing about is the belief in magic potions that give super human strength.

Can you not see why I would point out to you that that is the stuff of fairy tales, not real science?

Can you not understand that superior performance is the result of superior energy efficiency, which is real actualy science and not some mirculous transformation of metabolic ouptput which is not real science?

Hasn't Ross Tucker himself pointed this out? I see he leaves the question open in the above debate from 2009.

You have failed miserably at that because your thesis is incorrect and speculative.

Nobody has mentioned superhuman strength but you. Drugs just enhance the individual to a higher level or produce more of the same performance for a longer period of time.

Basic Physiology! Real Science!

pariah wrote:

That's the stupid mythology everyone believes, that more red blood cells = more oxygen delivery = better performance. It's just idiotic.

That's true you may as well get rid of a few litres of blood out of your body before a race to shed excess weight by a few kilos which will definitely improve performance. I imagine that people generally tend to run much faster after giving away a few units of blood. Maybe Lance Armstong and Team Sky noticed this as well.

lily white and clean wrote:

Could you reiterate exactly what you are looking for in Non Africans?

Sub 12 minutes 5ks Sub 1 hr 45 min marathons etc shortly after an EPO injection ...

The improvements seen in the Spanish in the 1990s could largely be attributed to placebo effect, same for Lombard etc ...

Jon Orange can't grasp the difference between "homeostasis" in an individual and the upper beneficial limit in the human organism.

He also is baffled by the difference between the energy requirements to cover a certain distance and the energy requirements to do so in the fastest possible time.

Hint: you need a hood scoop to burn that energy at a faster rate.

I'm afraid to re-iterate, as it will start another round of "I already told you...." What I can do is direct you to click on the "1" above, and read the first two posts, that show a summary of results of a measure of the quantity of quality performances. You can read the third one about women, which I did for completeness, but I think that other factors unique to the women complicate this particular discussion. The main question was "why so few non-Africans, and by so little?", compared to 1990, when there was EPO, and EPO works. Why so few Spanish? I did not ever ask if EPO works, or for examples of EPO works, or to be otherwise convinced that EPO works. For this discussion, I assumed up front that it works. Ramzi is the wrong answer. Lance Armstrong is the wrong answer. Looking at medals won, or attempting to estimate individual improvement are wrong answers. Skiing, 800m, and race-walking are wrong answers. Studies that show an increase in red blood cells or VO2max are the wrong answer. I asked for reasons. I got some, so I don't need them again: - decline in interest - less incentive to win - more testing - cheating culture in Africa - genetics - altitude I think this list is not complete.

lily white and clean wrote:

Could you reiterate exactly what you are looking for in Non Africans?

Africans are more talented and dope harder. Spaniards have a large amount of African genetics from the Moors occupying Spain for centuries.

White athletes were falling behind already and got left in the dust when the serious doping started. Most of them realized that even WITH dope they would never be able to raise their game enough to compete at the new level.

Most of them are correct.

guesser wrote:

lily white and clean wrote:

Could you reiterate exactly what you are looking for in Non Africans?

Sub 12 minutes 5ks Sub 1 hr 45 min marathons etc shortly after an EPO injection ...

The improvements seen in the Spanish in the 1990s could largely be attributed to placebo effect, same for Lombard etc ...

Here are some excellent examples of the EPO placebo effect:

1 37′ 35″ Marco Pantani 1997 Italy

2* 37′ 36″ Lance Armstrong 2004 United States

3 38′ 00″ Marco Pantani 1994 Italy

4 38′ 01″ Lance Armstrong 2001 United States

5 38′ 04″ Marco Pantani 1995 Italy

6 38′ 23″ Jan Ullrich 1997 Germany

7 38′ 34″ Floyd Landis 2006 United States

8 38′ 35″ Andreas Klöden 2006 Germany

9* 38′ 37″ Jan Ullrich 2004 Germany

10 39′ 02″ Richard Virenque 1997 France

11 39′ 06″ Iban Mayo 2003 Spain

12* 39′ 17″ Andreas Klöden 2004 Germany

13* 39′ 21″ Jose Azevedo 2004 Portugal

14 39′ 22″ Nairo Quintana 2015 Colombia

15 39′ 28″ Miguel Induráin 1995 Spain

16 39′ 28″ Alex Zülle 1995 Switzerland

17 39′ 30″ Bjarne Riis 1995 Denmark

18 39′ 31″ Carlos Sastre 2008 Spain

19 39′ 44″ Gianni Bugno 1991 Italy

20 39′ 45″ Miguel Induráin 1991 Spain

21 39′ 50″ Nairo Quintana 2013 Colombia

22 40′ 00″ Jan Ullrich 2001 Germany

23 40′ 46″ Fränk Schleck 2006 Luxembourg

24 40′ 51″ Alexander Vinokourov 2003 Kazakhstan

25 41′ 18″ Lance Armstrong 2003 United States

26 41′ 21″ Samuel Sánchez 2011 Spain

27 41′ 30″ Alberto Contador 2011 Spain

It’s the riders who have record the 35 fastest ascents of Alpe d’Huez in the history of the Tour de France, based on the ascent being 14.454 for each rider.

Of the 35 times, 24 were recorded by men we now know were drugs cheats, or who have been implicated in doping.

In 1999, the Italian newspaper la Repubblica published information that linked Marco Pantani to an investigation on the use of performance-enhancing substances in Italian sports. According to the information released by the newspaper, Francesco Conconi administered EPO to Italian athletes from 1993 to 1998, including Pantani and other cyclists of Carrera. It was revealed that Pantani's name appeared on a file marked "Dblab", seized from Conconi's Biomedical Research Institute at Ferrara.

In 2006, two years after his death, Pantani was linked to the OPERATION PUERTO doping case. According to documentation released by Spanish radio network Cadena SER, Pantani was allegedly given the code name "PTNI" by Eufemiano FUENTES, with a detailed program in 2003, his last season, including EPO, growth hormone, Insulin, Levothyroxine, and IGF-1. Italian newspaper Corriere della Sera indicated that he was administered over 40,000 units of EPO, seven doses of growth hormone, thirty doses of anabolic steroids and four doses of hormones used to treat menopause.

Purdy tables all-time performances by equivalent times:

1) Paula Radcliffe (multiple suspicious blood tests) GBR = 3000m 7:59.8, 5000m 13:52, 10000m 29:03, Marathon 2:15:25

2) Almaz Ayana (managed by Jos Hermens) ETH = 3000m 8:04.0, 5000m 13:59, 10000m 29:17

3) Wang Junxia CHINA (1993) = 8:06.11, 14:03, 29:25

4) Wang Junxia CHINA (1993) = 8:07.1, 14:05, 29:31

5) Vivian Cheruyiot KENYA = 8:07.5, 14:06, 29:32

6) Tirunesh Dibaba (at Sabadell, Spain EPO hotel) ETH =8:07.9, 14:11, 29:42

7) Meseret Defar (on leaked Atypical ABP list) = 8:11.8, 14:12.8, 29:47

8) Qu Yunxia CHINA (1993)= 8:12, 14:13, 29:47

9) Wang Junxia CHINA (1993) = 8:12, 14:13, 29:47

10) Qu Yunxia CHINA (1993) = 8:12, 14:13, 29:47

11) Almaz Ayana (managed by Jos Hermens) ETH = 8:12.8, 14:14, 29:50

12) Genzebe Dibaba (also at Sabadell, Spain EPO hotel) = 8:13.1, 14:15, 29:52

13) Almaz Ayana (managed by Jos Hermens) ETH =8:13.6, 14:16, 29:54

14) Meseret Defar (on leaked Atypical ABP list) ETH= 8:13.8, 14:16, 29:54

15) Tirunesh Dibaba (at Sabadell, Spain EPO hotel) ETH = 8:13.8, 14:16, 29:54

16) Elvan Abeylegesse (former Ethiopian running for Turkey, banned for DOPING) = 8:14.3, 14:17, 29:56

It is just a coincidence.

Top 11 all-time marathon times for women:

1 2:15:25 Paula Radcliffe (multiple suspicious blood tests, 21.88% increase in Hb in 2 days in 2003, 16.2 g/dL Hb level in 2012)

2 2:17:01 Mary Keitany (on leaked Fancy Bears Atypical ABP blood test result with follow up testing list)

3 2:17:18 Paula Radcliffe (multiple suspicious blood test results)

4 2:17:42 Paula Radcliffe (multiple suspicious blood test results)

5 2:17:56 Tirunesh Dibaba (bad luck, she was at the Sabadell Spain hotel with Genzebe and Jama during EPO raid)

6 2:18:20 Liliya Shobukhova (banned for doping with EPO, adverse ABP)

7 2:18:31 Tirunesh Dibaba (bad luck she was at the EPO raid in Sabadell)

8 2:18:37 Mary Keitany (Atypical ABP blood test result on Fancy Bears leaked list)

9 2:18:47 Catherine N'dereba....set in 2001. No ABP at the time.

10 2:18:56 Paula Radcliffe (multiple suspicious blood tests)

11 2:18:57a Rita Jeptoo (banned for doping with EPO)

The 2016 Olympic Marathon gold medalist Jemima Sumgong (and former training partner of Rita Jeptoo) has also been banned for doping with EPO.

‘The Independent Commission has identified corruption and bribery practices at the highest levels of international athletics, currently under investigation by Interpol.

‘The Independent Commission said that the IAAF was inexplicably lax in following up suspicious blood profiles. I witnessed symptoms of that disgraceful behaviour when I inspected a database drenched with suspect blood profiles. And I made comment accordingly.’

‘The IAAF pleads that it could not have done more. But the blood values were so extreme, over such an extended period, that they should have tried to do something — anything.

‘The IAAF were legally timid when they should have been morally strong.’

Parisotto went on to reveal that the findings he was asked to analyse from a huge database of IAAF blood test results was, in his words, ‘jaw-dropping data [that] drove me — in fact compelled me — to review the database’.

He added: ‘As a health professional, the data revealed to me that so many athletes were at real risk of suffering heart attacks, strokes and even death.

Aug. 9 2015:

The London Marathon was won seven times in 12 years by athletes who have recorded blood scores that indicate doping.

According to data leaked to the Sunday Times, one in four winners of the the big six global marathons - London, Boston, Chicago, New York, Berlin and Tokyo - have recorded suspicious blood scores.

The newspaper says they "should have faced censure or at least been investigated over evidence of potential blood doping within their test results." The athletes whose blood experts deemed suspicious collectively won more than £4 MILLION in prize money from marathons including Chicago, London, New York and Boston.

From the London Marathon, the legitimacy of seven winners, six runners-up and seven third places has been called into question.

Russian runner Liliya Shobukhova, who won the marathon in 2010 and was runner-up in 2011, was stripped of her title this year and had her results since 2009 annulled. It is claimed that she recorded "extreme blood scores" for nine years before the authorities took action against her last year — and that marathon organisers were not told about the results.

The blood test data - 12,000 results from 5,000 athletes - was held by International Association of Athletics Federations (IAAF) and leaked by a whistle-blower.

After reviewing the data, scientists Robin Parisotto and Michael Ashenden claimed a THIRD (33.333%) of the MEDALS from endurance events at the Olympics and World Championships were won by athletes with abnormal or suspicious blood tests. Parisotto said he had never seen such a set of blood values.

For more reading on the mechanism of action:

Liliya Shobukhova was the fastest Russian BANNED for DOPING (ABP violation).

Liliya did well at marathons:

Winner of 2009 Chicago marathon

Winner of 2010 London marathon

Winner of 2010 Chicago marathon

2nd place at 2011 London marathon (Mary Keitany 1st)

Winner of 2011 Chicago marathon in 2:18:20

Winner of $500,000 World Marathon Majors BONUS JACKPOT MONEY FOR 2009-2010.

Rita Jeptoo was the fastest Kenyan born, living, and training at altitude who was BANNED for DOPING (EPO positive in OOC test).

Rita also did well at marathons. She was managed by Federico Rosa:

Winner of 2006 Boston marathon

2nd place at 2012 Chicago marathon (her training partner Priscah Jeptoo won the 2012 Olympic marathon silver medal)

Winner of 2013 Boston marathon

Winner of 2013 Chicago marathon

Winner of 2014 Boston marathon in 2:18:57

Winner of 2014 Chicago marathon...but no $500,000 WMM BONUS JACKPOT MONEY FOR RITA...because of that darn EPO positive doping test and ban. Oh well. Sorry about that Rita.

Jemima Sumgong was the training partner of Rita Jeptoo. She was also managed by Federico and Gabriele Rosa. Jemima Sumgong was also BANNED for DOPING (EPO positive in OOC test).

Jemima also did well at marathons:

2nd place at the 2012 Boston marathon (had a little problem with a 2 year ban for prednisone, cleared on appeal)

Winner of 2013 Rotterdam marathon

2nd place at 2013 Chicago marathon (training partner and doper Rita Jeptoo was the winner)

4th place at 2014 Boston marathon (training partner and doper Rita Jeptoo was the winner)

2nd place at 2014 NYC marathon (Mary Keitany 1st)

Winner of 2016 London marathon

Winner of 2016 Olympic marathon GOLD MEDAL

The fastest female from CHINA banned for DOPING was Sun Yinjie (2:19:39 set in 2003).

Ms. Paula "Pantani" Radcliffe is faster at the marathon than ALL of the FASTEST WOMEN BANNED FOR DOPING from RUSSIA and CHINA...and ALL OTHER COUNTRIES ON THIS PLANET...in the entire history of human females.

Ms. Paula "Pantani" Racliffe is faster at the marathon than ALL of the FASTEST WOMEN born, living, and training at high altitude from KENYA AND ETHIOPIA of ALL TIME...including ALL OF THE FASTEST WOMEN BANNED FOR DOPING from KENYA AND ETHIOPIA.

...Ms. Paula "Pantani" Radcliffe is faster than all of them...

...Wait a second...

That sounds exactly like... LANCE ARMSTRONG.

It is just a Coincidental Synchronicity™.

or a happy coincidence .

if you want to dope go to iten , there will be no tests when there .

why has running suffered in other places all the obvious western rubbish bla blah

but more importantly east african doping is the main reason . beyond obvious

can only discourage for so long till penny drops

official letter from iaaf /wada .

rekrunner wrote:

Coevett, to his credit, understood the question and gave me reasons -- at least he stayed on topic, and responded with an answer. I don't disagree with his reasons, but think that these are only partial answers.

C'mon Gary!...if you don't disagree with Coevett's explaination why do you continue to drag this on ad nauseam? His explaination is the most logical given the explosion of the EPO-aided top performances in the African nations during the EPO-era.

rekrunner wrote:

That's not what historical performances tell us...

The Obfuscatater wrote:

All endurance events benefit in the same manner. Science!

What? It is exactly what the historical evidence tell us cycling, running, biathlons, speed skating, cross country skiing, rowing, triathlons (and Ironman competitions) all saw sudden massive improvements c1993/1994.

aduck2022 wrote:

or a happy coincidence .

if you want to dope go to iten , there will be no tests when there .

why has running suffered in other places all the obvious western rubbish bla blah

but more importantly east african doping is the main reason . beyond obvious

can only discourage for so long till penny drops

official letter from iaaf /wada .

It continues because of replies like yours, that think it's about EPO-aided African performances. It continues because people think cycling is relevant to the question, or North African doping, or XC skiing, or racewalking. The relevant responses probably fit on one page. His explanation is incomplete, listing just a few factors, each of which has some lingering doubts, and rejecting a few other factors. Coevett didn't answer why at least 5 non-Africans wouldn't just take more EPO, like the Africans (well except it looks like Spain did), especially during a decade where no test even existed -- but rather he accused me of making a wrong assumption that they did take more, of trying to prove East Africans are genetically superior, and calling me racist.

Think This One Through "Coach" wrote:

rekrunner wrote:

Coevett, to his credit, understood the question and gave me reasons -- at least he stayed on topic, and responded with an answer. I don't disagree with his reasons, but think that these are only partial answers.

C'mon!...if you don't disagree with Coevett's explaination why do you continue to drag this on ad nauseam? His explaination is the most logical given the explosion of the EPO-aided top performances in the African nations during the EPO-era.