There are many ways leading to Rome.Some of them are built for high speed in a smart and efficient design.
There are many ways leading to Rome.Some of them are built for high speed in a smart and efficient design.
I am wondering how much time will it take for LateRunnerPhil to wake up from his obsession with Tinman. Will he be looking at his posts and thinking "what the hell was I thinking".
LateRunnerPhil, I liked Tinman and his approach much more before you started your Tinman Crusade. I honestly, think that your posting (at least here in letsrun) does more damage to him then helps. At least your current manner of posting. Those who have been here longer probably remember your training thread and your stubbornness on denying that you are running your CV intervals too fast. Now you are stubbornly set on this Tinman gospel, hopefully it will pass and you will be more open to ideas and understanding that there are many ways to skin the cat.
Also, if you have not, please search web for full study/work by G Sandford (spl) called Anaerobic Speed Reserve, it should be available somewhere not behind paywall and will provide you with good info on why raw speed matters.
To come back to the topic, cannot comment on specifically Tinman base tips, but I think the principles are pretty general when speaking about base. As a young athlete you probably want to increase your mileage by adding more easy running. In terms of workout, base is not the time for high intensity and by high intensity I mean either workouts imitating races, workouts at 5k pace or faster with short recoveries, lactate tolerance workouts, etc. If there is a need to do any work at fast paces, then it should be done with considerable recovery time. Focus should be on base qualities - endurance and raw speed. Both limit your potential at any distance and to be the best version of yourself you have to develop both from young age. Endurance workouts should be moderate and focused more on threshold or even sub threshold intensities, while there should be at least day or possibly two with focus on pure speed in form of short hill sprints, 30-50m fly's, etc where everything is done with full recovery and with good relaxed form.
OldFish. wrote:
LateRunnerPhil, I liked Tinman and his approach much more before you started your Tinman Crusade. I honestly, think that your posting (at least here in letsrun) does more damage to him then helps. At least your current manner of posting. Those who have been here longer probably remember your training thread and your stubbornness on denying that you are running your CV intervals too fast. Now you are stubbornly set on this Tinman gospel, hopefully it will pass and you will be more open to ideas and understanding that there are many ways to skin the cat.
There need to be people counteracting all the flame, hate and criticism Tinman gets on these boards. All he ever wanted to do in the 20 years he spent online and as a coach was to help people/runners. He shared a lot of information freely, and helped many runners achieve their goals.
This thread was about someone asking about Tinman training, and people come in and criticize his system and training methods. One year ago there was a lot less negativity about his training, it's since the formation of Tinman Elite and completely unrealistic expectations of forum users here that people think his training is not very good. Apparently it's not enough that all runners set PR's post-collegiate in Tinman Elite, people expect them to become national and Olympic champions, which is just crazy.
And now we are in a situation with no races, so Tinman can't defend himself with showing results from his elite (and sub-elite at TTC) athletes and legitimize his proven training methods.
No one says other systems aren't good or aren't viable options - but I've often said, it's important to "lock in" to a training system/coach and trust the process, rather than mixing 24523 things together. Tinman's training is simple, yet proven and effective. If you want to follow a training system that includes all-out sprints for distance runners, there are plenty available. If you want one focused on VO2MAX sessions, there is also. If you want one focused on double threshold days, choose that. But please, stop constantly criticizing Tinman's simple system that's easy to understand and follow and surely brings positive results to most runners.
Why do you pretend to know how to coach. Do you even know one thing about coaching . All you do is hide behind your Han Solo name once again.
Stop bashing what you pretend you had or wish could do. You know nothing about coaching, winning a state ,winning a national title and Tinman would talk circles around you.
The only thing you know how to do is sit behind your key board with a unsuccessful coaching resume.
Have you ever spoke to any of those coaches of the teams you listed? They are brilliant with workouts, motivation and much more!
Have more respect will help your own coaching out. Sit back and learn from the leading coaches instead of bashing them for their success you never had.
Han Solo is so scared wrote:
Why do you pretend to know how to coach. Do you even know one thing about coaching . All you do is hide behind your Han Solo name once again.
Stop bashing what you pretend you had or wish could do. You know nothing about coaching, winning a state ,winning a national title and Tinman would talk circles around you.
The only thing you know how to do is sit behind your key board with a unsuccessful coaching resume.
Have you ever spoke to any of those coaches of the teams you listed? They are brilliant with workouts, motivation and much more!
Have more respect will help your own coaching out. Sit back and learn from the leading coaches instead of bashing them for their success you never had.
Now this is a proper crazy person.
Han Solo is so scared wrote:
Why do you pretend to know how to coach. Do you even know one thing about coaching . All you do is hide behind your Han Solo name once again.
Stop bashing what you pretend you had or wish could do. You know nothing about coaching, winning a state ,winning a national title and Tinman would talk circles around you.
The only thing you know how to do is sit behind your key board with a unsuccessful coaching resume.
Have you ever spoke to any of those coaches of the teams you listed? They are brilliant with workouts, motivation and much more!
Have more respect will help your own coaching out. Sit back and learn from the leading coaches instead of bashing them for their success you never had.
Where exactly did I trash these programs? I listed the reasons why they’re successful....
Han Solo wrote:
Han Solo is so scared wrote:
Why do you pretend to know how to coach. Do you even know one thing about coaching . All you do is hide behind your Han Solo name once again.
Stop bashing what you pretend you had or wish could do. You know nothing about coaching, winning a state ,winning a national title and Tinman would talk circles around you.
The only thing you know how to do is sit behind your key board with a unsuccessful coaching resume.
Have you ever spoke to any of those coaches of the teams you listed? They are brilliant with workouts, motivation and much more!
Have more respect will help your own coaching out. Sit back and learn from the leading coaches instead of bashing them for their success you never had.
Where exactly did I trash these programs? I listed the reasons why they’re successful....
I a visit the MB's daily and your registered handle Han Solo always comes off as a know it all. Yes you trash other coaches and programs. You seem really like to focus on High Schools most and to top it off you are very passive aggressive with your comments. You do make exceptions and trash college and professional too.
Why not just be honest and tell us your coaching accolades. You seem to think you know it all.
I’m sorry you feel that way. I do apologize if I’ve offended you or have come off that way in posts; it wasn’t my intention to do so. It does get heated in here sometime and I know I’ve said things in some ways I wish I could reverse.
In short, I’m trying to be less of what you say I am.
In the end, I’m a coach who has helped run a successful (at least to me) program for north of a decade and love what I do. In my spare time I enjoy researching the training of high school, college, and professional coaching so I feel I do have a leg to stand on when commenting on these things, as I feel I know more than the average poster does.
Again, sorry to all, bear with me, I’m trying to be better!
And if you could provide specific examples of the programs and coaches I trash, that would help me see where to improve and what NOT to do in the future.
Thank you.
LateRunnerPhil wrote:
Apparently it's not enough that all runners set PR's post-collegiate in Tinman Elite...
First of all this is not true. All of his runners have not done this. He is not a great coach like you want him to be. Get over it.
Secondly, this is a crazy low standard. It is easier to PR after college than any other time in your life. If you hold ANY elite coach to this standard they will look really good.
LateRunnerPhil wrote:
OldFish. wrote:
LateRunnerPhil, I liked Tinman and his approach much more before you started your Tinman Crusade. I honestly, think that your posting (at least here in letsrun) does more damage to him then helps. At least your current manner of posting. Those who have been here longer probably remember your training thread and your stubbornness on denying that you are running your CV intervals too fast. Now you are stubbornly set on this Tinman gospel, hopefully it will pass and you will be more open to ideas and understanding that there are many ways to skin the cat.
There need to be people counteracting all the flame, hate and criticism Tinman gets on these boards. All he ever wanted to do in the 20 years he spent online and as a coach was to help people/runners. He shared a lot of information freely, and helped many runners achieve their goals.
This thread was about someone asking about Tinman training, and people come in and criticize his system and training methods. One year ago there was a lot less negativity about his training, it's since the formation of Tinman Elite and completely unrealistic expectations of forum users here that people think his training is not very good. Apparently it's not enough that all runners set PR's post-collegiate in Tinman Elite, people expect them to become national and Olympic champions, which is just crazy.
And now we are in a situation with no races, so Tinman can't defend himself with showing results from his elite (and sub-elite at TTC) athletes and legitimize his proven training methods.
No one says other systems aren't good or aren't viable options - but I've often said, it's important to "lock in" to a training system/coach and trust the process, rather than mixing 24523 things together. Tinman's training is simple, yet proven and effective. If you want to follow a training system that includes all-out sprints for distance runners, there are plenty available. If you want one focused on VO2MAX sessions, there is also. If you want one focused on double threshold days, choose that. But please, stop constantly criticizing Tinman's simple system that's easy to understand and follow and surely brings positive results to most runners.
Tinman just hammers the crap out of his athletes. You and him can say it's easy a million times but it doesn't make it true.
He gets the most talented high school athletes in the country throwing money at him for coaching and they don't achieve anything of note. If ONE has success, Tinman is lightning quick to brag about it. When all the rest fail, you and him blame the athlete instead of the training.
LateRunnerPhil wrote:
This is a good post, apart from the personal insults you are often doing (for no reason), so I'll answer it.
The training looks like something Tinman would prescribe, so it's without a question that you were coached by him. He increases the pressure to a runner 6 weeks before a peak competition (and then tapers the last 2 weeks), so the two weeks you were listing were right on that "higher pressure" phase. The 6-12 weeks before that would be more moderate and contain more work at CV and less at VO2MAX/5k pace.
Why did it not work that well? Because you did it wrong. I've done the same thing. I thought I'm doing Tinman training, but was overestimating my paces and not getting the point of sessions so I ended up doing Tinman training without doing Tinman training.
The 10-12x20s on, 40s off is a staple on pre-workout days in Tinman's program. Last year I did them way too fast, around 400-800m effort or sprint speed. It was visible when the jog recovery in the 40s off went down to 11 min miles. After looking how the elites are doing it, it can be seen that the 40s recovery is just as fast / if not faster than the average easy pace, so the 20s on should be fast, relaxed running but without any straining or forcing the pace. If it's done that way, zero recovery will be needed and you will feel better afterwards and for the workout the next day. Shooting for a PR mile pace set on a track in peak mile shape when doing the strides on soft surface somewhere in the middle of a high-mileage training week is probably too fast, running them by effort and making sure it's relaxed is the right way.
The hill reps / strides at the end of a workout should also never make you feel bad. It's easy to do them too fast, or force a pace. The difference between mile-3k pace, and 400-800m pace becomes quite significant. Doing these workouts throughout a season will not just improve your leg strength / stride power, but also give you an enormous kick at the end of races since you are used to running fast when tired.
The CV / threshold / 5k paced stuff is often done wrong. We tend to overestimate our paces in training, and do them WAY too hard. You were a young (in terms of training age), ambitious runner who wanted to improve quickly and set big PRs in races. I was the same. All my tempo runs, CV workouts, 3k/5k stuff, etc were done too fast, and that's how Tinman training misses the point and becomes dangerous. If we run all at the right paces (and not PR/peak shape pace), the training leads to long-term improvement. Anything too fast, and you only improve short-term and might wrongly improve your lactate tolerance at the cost of stamina and endurance.
We all tend to be experts when following a training program and think we do it 100% right, and if it fails to give us the right/expected results we blame the coach/training program. But mostly, it was just people doing Tinman training wrong, running at wrong paces and missing the stimulus. The same reason got the elite injured, because the 1-2 years before this one Tinman lived somewhere completely different and the guys were on their own, often running way too fast. Since Tinman moved to Boulder, and is observing workouts, injury rate went down a lot and great things are expected to happen in the future.
That's also why LV is doing well - they don't just "do" or "copy" Tinman training, the coaches know exactly how it should feel like (Tinman trained Drew's mum himself) and make sure the kids run at the right paces, leading to long-term improvement regardless of the individual talent level.
I'm pretty sure Marc Hunter didn't need Tinman to teach him exactly how it should feel like.
Very good debates!