Will Kelsey Chmiel be disqualifed from the NYS Championships?

Have you ever been to the Freihofer’s Race for Women? Are you a woman or do you have a daughter or a granddaughter? It is an amazing experience to see women running for different reasons. There are not many all women races left. There was a team that ran 4 generations from one family. There are women that have raced it for all 41 years. There are women that run pushing their sick friends in wheelchairs, pro runners and Olympians. She was an invited athlete asked to represent the Capital District. The decision she makes to go easy or to race it is hers to make not mostly men on a message board.

Fasttuohy wrote:

Hounddogharrier wrote:

Rojo , I agree that the PLAN of how they were going to help their teammate was fine but the execution of the PLAN left a lot to be desired . If they were running to pace why get 100 meters ahead of her ? Then to stop right before the finish was bad anyway you spin it.

Also I’m not sure how Wheeler qualified. She needed to run a 10:02. She had run 10:06 and ran a 10:08. How did she get in the State meet ?

From what i gather the girl who won elected not to run the 3000 next week, so Wheeler became the top qualifier.

There are 2 standards- a slower one where you can be the first "loser" and go then the Super Standard which gets you in automatically- as long as you "run" that event at the State Quals.

The thought is good but the policy is bad. Many states use a normal trials type qualifier which makes more sense.

Fasttuohy wrote:

Hounddogharrier wrote:

Rojo , I agree that the PLAN of how they were going to help their teammate was fine but the execution of the PLAN left a lot to be desired . If they were running to pace why get 100 meters ahead of her ? Then to stop right before the finish was bad anyway you spin it.

Also I’m not sure how Wheeler qualified. She needed to run a 10:02. She had run 10:06 and ran a 10:08. How did she get in the State meet ?

From what i gather the girl who won elected not to run the 3000 next week, so Wheeler became the top qualifier.

Good to know at least one person in this charade has some ethics.

The State Qualifier meet should be run so that the TOP FINISHER in each event AT THE MEET advances to states.

"But what about the sections that have a lot of fast kids, shouldn't they all get a chance too?"

They have a chance. They can compete to be the TOP FINISHER in their event AT THE MEET. If they do not finish in 1st place, they stay home. This is how the real world works. If you finish 4th place at the Olympic Trials, you do not go to the Olympics, plain and simple.

By going back to this "old fashioned" way of qualifying, you get rid of all the garbage that happened throughout the state last weekend. Kids running hard for half the race and then deciding to jog, disrupting the entire race. People complaining about how certain races are paced and kids dropping out. That all goes away by simply advancing the TOP FINISHER in the event.

If someone "wants to help their teammate get to states" they should simply train harder with them and encourage them to become faster.

This being said, I do not fault the athletes or the coaches. I fault the NYS system of "super standards" and trying to interject itself to make things more competitive. As a coach myself, I would be embarrassed if I coached my athlete to jog any portion of any race, but I understand that this mentality of competition is quickly fading out with each passing generation and have accepted that. You take away the "super standard" and go back to winner-take-all, you might have a few fast kids staying home, but ultimately you save yourself the embarrassment of what these meets have become.

everyone knew this was going to happen with the new super standard. I do fault adults that were jerks to kids who had the standard and expected them to jog. They made kids feel bad for trying - even if the kids needed to improve their seed time for the state meet. KIds were made to feel bad for not "helping out" another kid.

IT's not hard... three kids from the section go if 1) the winner all three have the super standard. That was the goal of the rule, allowing a potential medaler to get to states even if they were in a difficult section. Instead adults and kids playing iwth rules. If the winner doesn't have the standard, then only the winner goes.

The Super standard should apply to only the State qualifying meet. Top two go unless xxx standard is achieved by more competitors.

I agree with the post directly above mine. To be able to use the super standard that time should have to be run AT the state qualifier. This is basically the system that California uses and it completely eliminates the problem of people tanking so another athlete can qualify. You have at large times but they have to be run in the sectional championship or it doesn't matter.

Agreed.

This is what the system already had in place with the "At Large" times. The only difference was that the section would only send one additional athlete with the At Large time, and with the Super Standard they can send as many as they'd like.

If you're going to have to have some way of making it so more athletes can attend the meet, make them hit the times in the most important meet.

adklmf wrote:

everyone knew this was going to happen with the new super standard. I do fault adults that were jerks to kids who had the standard and expected them to jog. They made kids feel bad for trying - even if the kids needed to improve their seed time for the state meet. KIds were made to feel bad for not "helping out" another kid.

IT's not hard... three kids from the section go if 1) the winner all three have the super standard. That was the goal of the rule, allowing a potential medaler to get to states even if they were in a difficult section. Instead adults and kids playing iwth rules. If the winner doesn't have the standard, then only the winner goes.

I agree with this. I was a NY high school runner and had the standard both junior and senior years. I don't think super standards were in place then but there was something similar. If a runner met the regular standard, another runner could go if she placed first and the runner with the standard placed second. A coach of a girl who I was friendly with from a different team who didn't have the standard approached my HS coach asking if I would let their girl win and place second so we could both qualify. My coach left it up to me and I said no, I wanted to try to improve my seed time. I got some flack from it (not from my coach but from other teams) but truly I didn't care. A race is a race and I loved to race. I was never going to just let somebody win just to play nice. I realize that a lot of people don't really care about state quals and that's fine if you don't mind taking the L to help someone else along, but I think it should be left up to the athlete.

Very simple and fair...........there is a needed time to get to your state meet ----- and if you make it you go.....

The old system of having geographical representation is false and promotes mediocrity over the pursuit of excellence---

which is what our sport is supposed to be all about.

So there are two systems at play here

System One: you qualify for the state meet by hitting a necessary time ---- and if you do so --- you go to the state meet.

System Two: you qualify for the state meet by finishing in the required top position(s) at the qualifiers meet.

THE PROBLEMS OCCUR WHEN THEY START TO COMBINE THE TWO SYSTEMS with some going by time and the others trying to get there by finishing position.

32tOutjgj wrote:

So there are two systems at play here

System One: you qualify for the state meet by hitting a necessary time ---- and if you do so --- you go to the state meet.

System Two: you qualify for the state meet by finishing in the required top position(s) at the qualifiers meet.

THE PROBLEMS OCCUR WHEN THEY START TO COMBINE THE TWO SYSTEMS with some going by time and the others trying to get there by finishing position.

They can solve this pretty easily by doing what other states do, you have to finish finish top two at sections or you have to run the qualifying time at sections. Allowing qualifying times not run at sections caused this problem.

Or do what makes even more sense, the next best x times from the qualifying meets instead of a set time. Treat it like a prelim which is what the smart states do and what every NCAA or Olympic prelim does. That way there are a set number of qualifiers.

Timer of times wrote:

Or do what makes even more sense, the next best x times from the qualifying meets instead of a set time. Treat it like a prelim which is what the smart states do and what every NCAA or Olympic prelim does. That way there are a set number of qualifiers.

The one nice thing about having a qualifying time is that you know at the end of the race who is in or not and you are not dependent on tactics run in races you are not involved in. The down side as you mentioned is not knowing the exact number of runners in the final until all the races are run.

Yes- I coached a steeplechaser who had the standard (before the Super Standard). There was one other kid who was close. They ran sub 10:00, the other kid won, my kid went as the first "loser" with the standard.

They have a chance. They can compete to be the TOP FINISHER in their event AT THE MEET. If they do not finish in 1st place, they stay home. This is how the real world works. If you finish 4th place at the Olympic Trials, you do not go to the Olympics, plain and simple

Here's the problem with that, and the reason for the standards- NY State has a couple pf sections that rarely produce "fast" runners. They are sparsely populated. They want to get the best possible competition at States.

I think the solution is:

Have a standard that is difficult to achieve. At State Quals, let the winner AND anyone who achieves that standard go to states.

It could be somewhere in between the regular standard and super standard.

.