Julien Wanders' last 'special training block' before Stockholm DL. 100% PR shape

S. Cherono wrote:

nks wrote:

I think its funny, Canovas philosophy's are plastered all over this site, yet most of you don't even know what a special block is so you accuse Julian of doping? Almost all of Canovas athletes have done blocks like this, so why does this make him a doper?

I was just going to point this out. This is classic Canova type training. Search the Shaheen training thread here on this website for extensive examples of this.

Yes, and as some mentioned, the workout was pretty controlled. A jog lap recovery is probably about 2 mins. That’s a lot for 10k pace. For all the people that love Tinman: ‘CV’ pace is just a tick slower than 10k pace. Usually you do 1k’s at CV pace with 75 seconds rest. Also, remember that a CV workout isn’t all that intense. So 800’s at 10k pace with 2 mins rest just isn’t hard for an elite athlete. I remember doing 8x800 with equal rest at 2:08-2:11 with the last one at 2:02 ( I’m sure many people have done workout but much fast as it’s a classic VO2 max workout as that was equal to or just slower than 3k pace). 10x400m at @ 5k pace with 2 mins rest is even easier. (Remember a classic miler workout is 10x400 @ Mile pace with 1 minute rest).

The workout in the afternoon isn’t that difficult either. Putting them all together makes for a great, tiring day, but everything included a lot of recovery at a controlled, manageable intensity. As long as you have the mileage to support this type of work, it’s not anything crazy. Another perspective: he did 13k at 4:23 pace split over 2 workouts never running more than 1k at that pace at a time and had plenty of rest. He ran 21.1 k straight- no rest- at 4:31 pace. I’ll give you that the workout was probably at altitude and the race at sea level, but still...and as mentioned before the 4K at 5k pace had a lot of relative rest.

He’s not a US high school athlete, he’s a world class athlete with a life devoted to training and years of consistent high mileage. This shouldn’t even be a thread- it was simply “another day in the office for him”.

Doping exist, but till it is not proven, just keep the comments and keep on training lads. Wtf is this hate all the time. Talk about running, coaching and periodisation...

Looking at some of Wanders training and his overall mileage, in case of intensity and volume of intensity, for him it is doable and very strategic workout. His 800s are at 27:10 pace followed by 400 just a bit faster at 26:15 pace. His 5 x 1000s at the evening are also 27:10 pace with a fast but doable recovery. It is hard, but not extremely hard, for somebody at his level.

(You can find these kind of workouts in Canova papers or just look at the Bompa - Periodization book and see how appropriate it is, if put 14 to 18 days out of a competition.

People also comparing his young and also recent times and stating that he is a genetic mutant or doping, should be looking around more in the history of running. Adam Gaucher ran 8:21 for 3000m in 1993 @ 18yo (8:55 for 3200 actually) . Just one, but there are tons of others smoking all of his times, even at younger ages, so no, there is no real out poking stuff here.

Marco put up this post on the 26th of May. When was the workout in reality ? DL Stock is 30th of may, today.

A workout like this, looking at all the surrounding routines, would need at least 3days to recover from and at least 7days to get the benefits. If he was tired or not tapered up, maybe plus 2-3 days.

If that workout was really 4 -5 days out, I cannot see the value of it !

(Just look at his IAAF profile also, he is gradually increasing and no sudden and constant extreme spikes are present in his perfs. The only things I can really point out is his 10000m time what had a 1:04 drop from 2016 to 2017 and his 10k time what had dropped 47seconds from 2017 to 2018. However he was gaining endurance with his high volumed training while and still racing 1500/3000/5000 gaining speed too. Also those big gaps are exactly a year apart, not like a 2months sudden progression and we don't talk about running like 15minutes faster marathon in 6months , in case of some elite women !)

I don't say that "hugs and unicorns" should be all the time, but he is just a great runner at this moment, doing what he likes, basta ! No superhero unseen stuff going on.

It has been stated that this is fake news!

Julien is juicing for sure. Bet his balls are already shrinking.

Butter sutter wrote:

Renato Canova wrote:

Another stupid idiot....... the most important tribe in Letsrun.

Did you buy Bitcoin?

And that makes you clever.... and did you?

Maybe he did below 4000...

So you're telling me that you've named your training system after Canova, but you don't know that Canova is the originator of special og specific blocks? Sounds pretty clueless to me.

To answer your question, yes, Canova has used these days for years now, either in the special period or the specific period.

hypocriticalz wrote:

trollism wrote:

Just seems strange that a clean athlete wouldn't go out of his way to distance himself from the dirtiest nation on the planet when it comes to distance running.

Yet there you are jerking off to Kipchoge's results and treating him like some super athlete. Why is that?

I think you're getting me mixed up with someone else.

Robert, I can accept that many athletes use doping, some of them of top level. THIS IS A FACT.

People in LR, instead, dont't accept that is possible to achieve a WR WITHOUT using doping, because they have this opinion, something that for me is not an opinion, BUT ANOTHER FACT.

About doping, the most part of thread are based on the BELLY, not on FACTS.

We go to see some of the most important athletes doped :

RITA JEPTOO :

a) She was positive two weeks before winning Chicago 2014. This is a FACT.

b) After this, she was banned for "supposed" irregularities in the BP before Boston, because it was not ethic to consider a doper as winner of the jackpot. IF THERE WAS NOT THE POSITIVE TEST BEFORE CHICAGO, THE FLUCTUATIONS IN HER BP NEVER COULD PRODUCE A VERDICT OF BAN, only some suspicion (like the list of the British newspaper).

c) Because of the FACT she was doped in September 2014, the most part of readers think she was doped also 3 or 5 or 7 years before (when already was able running under 2:20). THIS IS NOT A FACT, BUT A SUPPOSITION.

MATHEW KISORIO :

a) He was positive in a control in competition after National Championships 2012 in 10000 on track (14.06). THIS IS A FACT.

b) There was a widespread opinion that in Kenya there were not antidoping controls. THIS WAS AN OPINION, looking at the FACT that Kisorio was positive during a doping control IN KENYA.

c) Instead, is a FACT that there were not OOC tests for blood, while is a FACT that there were a lot of OOC tests for urine.

d) Is a FACT that the National Champs 2012, where Kisorio was doped, WAS ONE OF THE SLOWEST COMPETITION ON TRACK OF THE ATHLETES ON THE DISTANCE (8th personal performance, very far from both the PB at sea level of 26'54"25 and the PB in Nairobi with 27'28"13, while in 2012 he ran in 28'05"60).

e) Is a FACT that, after coming back from the ban, Kisorio was able running his best marathons, lowing his PB from 2:10:58 to 2:04:53.

f) Is a FACT that banned athletes, for coming back, have to be tested frequently, normally 3 times more than athletes never having some doping problem previously (so, we have to suppose he was clean AFTER the ban).

I can continue with examples like this for other 50 athletes.

I'm sure some top athlete, till now clean, can be on doping, and till now was not still caught.

But, also, I KNOW FOR SURE that many top are completely clean, some of them being WR holder, and automatically this means that the idea of 4% of improvement using EPO, at that level, is a total bullshit.

So, till when the obfuscated believers in DOPING continue to look at pseudo scientific tests, carried out with a population that nothing has to do with elite athletes, speaking about amazing possibilitires of improvement with EPO, and are not able to ACCEPT the FACT that several WR are clean, I can't have any interest to post again something about doping.

But always I go to defend athletes that I know are clean, and NEVER I can accept calumnies regarding their integrity.

This is my world, I know what I'm talking about, and I don't think is the world of many posters, who show very good knowledge, but for something else.

First group will go out at 27:00 pace, including Kipruto, Wanders, Gebrhiwet, Yimer, Rono, Kifle + 2 pacers.

The rest will go at 27:30 pace.

Before everybody jumps on the "must be doping" bandwagon, I suggest they look out the training of many of the greats of the 1950s and '60s - Gordon Pirie and the Igloi trained runners both in Hungary and the USA. Twice daily interval workouts were the norm for them, sometimes at very fast paces , high intensity.

Assuming that Wanders has no occupation other than running, he could do the first session at, say 9:00am and the second at, say 5:00pm. If he eats, drinks whatever he needs between sessions, has a good rest off his feet between the runs this training does not seem unrealistic for an athlete of his calibre. Nobody is saying he does this every day!

Anti-doping in Switzerland is a complete joke. They don't test their athletes when they're here, let alone in Kenya. Just count how many swiss athletes are serving suspensions (not many) and who caught them (not anti-doping Switzerland). You can't get caught if you're never tested.

All that JW has to do is to not show up in Europe glowing, that's all. With EPO and testosterone micro-dosing, he's all set.

This looks fairly typical of a big day for a lot of American distance runners doing high mileage. Listen to some podcasts with Jeff Eggleston.. he has mentioned some 30~32mi days. Nate Jenkins is another, doing 2x10km in the morning, then 2x10km in the evening. Knowing what I know about Canova's training methods, a day like Wanders's isn't totally unheard of.

It's not like Wanders is doing that everyday. If he does that workout once or twice over a few months, with lots of recovery days before and after.. I believe it.

Renato Canova wrote:

Robert, I can accept that many athletes use doping, some of them of top level. THIS IS A FACT.

People in LR, instead, dont't accept that is possible to achieve a WR WITHOUT using doping, because they have this opinion, something that for me is not an opinion, BUT ANOTHER FACT.

You're also talking to a lot of people in the USA, who swore by their relatives' graves that the best cyclist in the world ever was a clean, only to find out he lied the entire time. And avidly follow football, baseball etc where every national hero was also on drugs. And now when we get beat constantly at distance running by African runners, yeah, it's easy to be skeptical. Pretty much any anomaly is subject to scrutiny these days as a result.. unfortunately.

Well, we do know why Wanders is being attacked. That much is obvious. Hope he crushes one today to really put the multiculture shills in a frenzy.

It would not even be a big Canova day. In his marathon paper he mentions a double of

Am 10km @ 85 %mpace + 12km @mpace

PM 10km @ 85 %mpace + 15km @mpace

With warming up and cool down that is roughly 60km day.

In one of his videos he mentions a 30km hill climb and some of his athletes do jog down post climb. Yeah 60km.

(Maybe he mocks the reporters sometime though)

So that Wanders special block is not brut brut and Julien mentions in a YouTube block that he rest up for a couple of days before and takes many days easy after wards.

Some of you mentioned Igloi. Those guys were doing these special blocks day in day out. Month after month. The break down and quitting rate was extremely high !

Zatopek 100 x 400 all out..and so.

Agree!

SUPERIOR COACH JS wrote:

djkfdgirg wrote:

So you're telling me that you've named your training system after Canova, but you don't know that Canova is the originator of special og specific blocks? Sounds pretty clueless to me.

To answer your question, yes, Canova has used these days for years now, either in the special period or the specific period.

Of course I know that Canova use the so called "special,specific blocks", but from what has been told and written never this double fast intervals in the same day. Besides the name of my training system is a mix of both Daniels and Canova , Daniels for the need of perfect individual pace and Canova for the need of specific long run to reach optimal performance at half/ marathon.But my specific long run is different from Canova`s .

-The Wizard -

If you had studied Canova's philosophy thoroughly you would have known that a day like that is very normal for his athletes.

This, look at the training log of Saif Saaeed Shaheen(Stephen Cherono) - 12:48 5k, 7:57 3k SC:

These are just the days where he has two "hard" workouts, there are many days where he does two moderate runs in a single day.

Levi.Run wrote:

It would not even be a big Canova day. In his marathon paper he mentions a double of

Am 10km @ 85 %mpace + 12km @mpace

PM 10km @ 85 %mpace + 15km @mpace

With warming up and cool down that is roughly 60km day.

In one of his videos he mentions a 30km hill climb and some of his athletes do jog down post climb. Yeah 60km.

(Maybe he mocks the reporters sometime though)

So that Wanders special block is not brut brut and Julien mentions in a YouTube block that he rest up for a couple of days before and takes many days easy after wards.

Some of you mentioned Igloi. Those guys were doing these special blocks day in day out. Month after month. The break down and quitting rate was extremely high !

Zatopek 100 x 400 all out..and so.

Now I checked the training of Shaheen and see it`s correct he sometimes did double maxVO2 intervals ( or even faster pace ) in e.g 10 x 600s at 1:33 and later in the day 10 x 400m at 57.5 . This kind of fast doubles was not to be seen when looking at the training of Moses Mosop or Abel Kirui or Moen , even if they of course are marathoners.

Anyway this is not optimal training seen to the training doctrine "enough pressure - enough recovery = supercompensation" and according to scientific research the need of minimum rest time between hard fast workouts.

And we never see Kipchoge do double hard workouts like this , but of course he has another coach in P.Sang.