Keboji wrote:
I'd say there's something that's preventing a cut and dry closed case after almost a year.
Which is all we're saying.
https://twitter.com/RunEmilyERun/status/1066793698690834433Keboji wrote:
I'd say there's something that's preventing a cut and dry closed case after almost a year.
Which is all we're saying.
https://twitter.com/RunEmilyERun/status/1066793698690834433El Keniano wrote:
Racism is a two way street wrote:
Why do you always seem to default to a person's colour?
Just reacting to the Coe, Willis, Jager, Mottram, Rupp, Moen are the real distance world record holders, crowd. There's a similar list for women.
You do realize that there are Europeans and Americans who suspect Coe, Jager, Rupp and Moen of doping? Just look up any Rupp thread on letsrun.
El Keniano wrote:
Subway Surfers wrote:
Exactly. World Champion Emma Coburn can't break a doper's World record by like 8 seconds.
Yes. Because blonde, Aryan Emma Coburn is the standard for female steeplechasing.
Your so right El Keniano. Anyone who thinks that nobody can cleanly run faster than blonde Goddess Emma Coburn is clearly a racist. You know I learn a new thing each day, I always thought that the greatest enemy of Hitler and the third Reich were (white) Russians and (white) Jews.
I thought he gave up fighting the case saying he was too poor.
Subway Surfers wrote:
I thought he gave up fighting the case saying he was too poor.
You know how much tea that would cost?
https://www.balls.ie/newsnow/watch-kenyan-athlete-smashes-world-record-time-alleged-doper-393300El Keniano wrote:
Again, as good, and classy, as Emma Coburn publicly calling Beatrice Chepkoech a doper, for doing what she can't.
Think This One Through wrote:
Croze wrote:
Coming from the same guy that were spewing lie after lie about Moen to try to make him seem like a doper, even though most of your "facts" where lies. You lost all credibility.
You don't think Chad has any credibility? He's been right more than wrong.
Chad?
Lies to make it seem someone is a doper -> no credibility and probably just a troll.
It's hilarious that when the Chinese were doing crazy things on the track the first thing people thought as it was unfolding was that the athletes were clearly doping and that sentiment was correct but now that it's east Africans there's people coming out to defend them right away. Look El K, there's cheaters everywhere in every country. It's not an indictment on Kenya, Kiprop cheated, Bett cheated, Sumgong cheated. They disgraced your country, you shouldn't be defending them. They took spots and money from other Kenyans that do it the right way.
Sand Dunes wrote:
Subway Surfers wrote:
I thought he gave up fighting the case saying he was too poor.
You know how much tea that would cost?
Well our good friend Mindweak indicates that $32 sounds about right.
Takinadump wrote:
It's hilarious that when the Chinese were doing crazy things on the track the first thing people thought as it was unfolding was that the athletes were clearly doping and that sentiment was correct but now that it's east Africans there's people coming out to defend them right away. Look El K, there's cheaters everywhere in every country. It's not an indictment on Kenya, Kiprop cheated, Bett cheated, Sumgong cheated. They disgraced your country, you shouldn't be defending them. They took spots and money from other Kenyans that do it the right way.
Exactly, I personally know someone who was a massive doper that was beat by Brad Wiggins at the Olympics. That says it all.
Takinadump wrote:
It's hilarious that when the Chinese were doing crazy things on the track the first thing people thought as it was unfolding was that the athletes were clearly doping and that sentiment was correct but now that it's east Africans there's people coming out to defend them right away. Look El K, there's cheaters everywhere in every country. It's not an indictment on Kenya, Kiprop cheated, Bett cheated, Sumgong cheated. They disgraced your country, you shouldn't be defending them. They took spots and money from other Kenyans that do it the right way.
+1 If you look at the comments (from Kenyans) under Kenyan news articles on the doping issue, it's clear that most Kenyans are furious and see these cheats as disgracing their country. I can't imagine how clean Kenyan athletes must feel.
This is one reason why it was hard to believe El K was even a Kenyan. If it's true he is a competitive Kenyan runner, it's pretty disturbing to say the least. I don't know why a clean Kenyan runner would go to those lengths to defend fellow Kenyans caught doping.
The same goes for the likes of the older Manangoi brother who defended Kiprop so resolutely. I understand that they are friends, but they must be really close friends for Manangoi to come to his defence like that, and then that speaks a lot about the odds of him being a doper also.
And I don't know how many times I keep saying this, but if there was any evidence whatsoever that there was a doping problem in British middle-distance running, I wouldn't even bother supporting any British runners, and certainly wouldn't defend them to the death here.
Imagine if there was a tabloid scoop that suddenly revealed that Coe and Peter Elliott had been dopers. Would I be not only continuing to claim that Cram and Ovett were the best middle-distance runners in history, but that something 'didn't add up' about Coe and Elliott's doping revelations, and all it proved anyway was that the rest of the world must have been doping worse? No. Because I'm neither a racist nor a hardcore doping apologist like El K. Of course it wouldn't mean that Cram and Ovett were also dopers, but it put the whole era of British middle-distance running under a cloud (and even today), and it would kill my memories of it.
El Keniano wrote:
Racism is a two way street wrote:
Why do you always seem to default to a person's colour?
Just reacting to the Coe, Willis, Jager, Mottram, Rupp, Moen are the real distance world record holders, crowd. There's a similar list for women.
Thats a crowd of maximum 5 people. Behaving like them makes you as bad as them.
Even coevett wouldn't agree with that list. Rasicm is a two way street, read his name, you're becomin what you criticize.
Some fair points but some disingenuous ones also. Anti-doping rules are complex - true but do you really believe the majority of cases are due to ignorance. I don't, it is hard to prove though. She talks about the difficulties athletes face, mentioning management fees. The manager works for you, ask him/her every time you take something. If you then make a mistake you have evidence of at least trying to do the right thing. While it might not be enough in the context of strict liability it would add to your case of it being a genuine error. The code is difficult to read - true and you could have sympathy for certain substances which are easy to find in cough medicines etc. EPO is not such a substance, unless Asbel had cancer in which case it would probably have been mentioned by now. She talks about how hard it is to understand - use a professional. Asbel was most likely paying Frederico Rosa 15% of his income, that's enough money to demand such services. If running is your career, be professional; utilise other people for stuff you can't do yourself. Don't employ the services of a manager who won't provide you with this support. The bit about android phones and data bundles is not the norm. Phones and internet are extremely common in Kenya. Maybe ten years ago it was different but any big athlete using an old-school phone is really rare. Which cases of doping look like they have a realistic chance of being genuine errors? Asbel has a lot of the signs of a doped athlete - management with bad reputation, incredicbly high level of performance in a very large number of races, reduced performance at events where testing is increased RE the system being easier for western athletes, that probably is true, but I think in those circumstances it is far more likely to help innocent western athletes get off than to convict guilty Kenyans. The system is not overly strict on Kenyans, it's too lenient on western athletes.
El Keniano wrote:
For the one person (or maybe two) on this site genuinely interested in a Kenyan perspective, I'll link this Twitter thread from Kenyan sports lawyer Sarah Ochwada (remember she represented Celliphine Chespol in a bitter management dispute). The nub is, the system is heavily skewed against non-Western athletes. Ajee Wilson, and many others, would be serving bans right now if they were Kenyan.
Really insightful thoughts. Worth a read.
https://twitter.com/SnoLegal/status/1066219647756832769
Croze wrote:
Think This One Through wrote:
You don't think Chad has any credibility? He's been right more than wrong.
Chad?
Lies to make it seem someone is a doper -> no credibility and probably just a troll.
I'm starting to believe he might be the same person as Rekrunner. Rekrunner is the fictitious character (with convenient links to the dastardly Brits) who claims that nobody dopes/doping doesn't work, especially East Africans and Paula, and MindWeak is the other extreme who thinks literally EVERYBODY dopes (although he doesn't spend too much time claiming that particular American runners dope).
They turn it into a polarized discussion of extremes. Either everyone dopes (or doping doesn't work) or nobody dopes. Those taking more moderate and reasonable positions based on evidence and actual doping busts, who claim that doping is worse in some places than others (for example East Africa - a view shared by 99% of people outside this forum, from the athletics community to the general public) are slandered as 'racists'.
Coevett wrote:
This is one reason why it was hard to believe El K was even a Kenyan.
El K is as Kenyan as Kiprop is clean. That is to say, not at all.
Mindweak even thinks Nick Willis dopes. He even reserves some of his most vicious bile for him (accusing him of being a tranny porn fapper).
Now Nick Willis might be a doper, but there's no reason to believe he is unless you assume everybody (I mean literally EVERYBODY) at the top dopes. I know we've been misled by 'anti-doping' stances from top athletes who turned out to be the biggest dopers, but if look at his statements from years back, he seems 1000x more convincing than people like Lance Armstrong and their empty soundbites. It's obvious he hates dopers with a genuine passion. It's almost painful to read some of his tweets from years back, especially now knowing he was cheated out of Gold by TWO dopers.
Just belittles the crimes of Kiprop and Ramzi and the rest to claim without any foundation that the guy they cheated out of medals and probably millions of dollars in sponsorship and the rest, was also a doper.
Coevett wrote:
Takinadump wrote:
It's hilarious that when the Chinese were doing crazy things on the track the first thing people thought as it was unfolding was that the athletes were clearly doping and that sentiment was correct but now that it's east Africans there's people coming out to defend them right away. Look El K, there's cheaters everywhere in every country. It's not an indictment on Kenya, Kiprop cheated, Bett cheated, Sumgong cheated. They disgraced your country, you shouldn't be defending them. They took spots and money from other Kenyans that do it the right way.
+1 If you look at the comments (from Kenyans) under Kenyan news articles on the doping issue, it's clear that most Kenyans are furious and see these cheats as disgracing their country. I can't imagine how clean Kenyan athletes must feel.
This is one reason why it was hard to believe El K was even a Kenyan. If it's true he is a competitive Kenyan runner, it's pretty disturbing to say the least. I don't know why a clean Kenyan runner would go to those lengths to defend fellow Kenyans caught doping.
The same goes for the likes of the older Manangoi brother who defended Kiprop so resolutely. I understand that they are friends, but they must be really close friends for Manangoi to come to his defence like that, and then that speaks a lot about the odds of him being a doper also.
And I don't know how many times I keep saying this, but if there was any evidence whatsoever that there was a doping problem in British middle-distance running, I wouldn't even bother supporting any British runners, and certainly wouldn't defend them to the death here.
Imagine if there was a tabloid scoop that suddenly revealed that Coe and Peter Elliott had been dopers. Would I be not only continuing to claim that Cram and Ovett were the best middle-distance runners in history, but that something 'didn't add up' about Coe and Elliott's doping revelations, and all it proved anyway was that the rest of the world must have been doping worse? No. Because I'm neither a racist nor a hardcore doping apologist like El K. Of course it wouldn't mean that Cram and Ovett were also dopers, but it put the whole era of British middle-distance running under a cloud (and even today), and it would kill my memories of it.
I dont think its that strange. People are fans, kenyans belive in kenyans, swedes believe in swedes and americans somewhat believes in americans. And so on. El K is clearly a very emotional driven guy, and he also clearly behaves more illogical because of trolls, or people he thinks are trolls, in here. This is clearly a mistake. Behaving bad because a few others do only put you in the same category. He can be compared to a die hard football (soccer) fan, trust and love your own no matter what, hate the rest. Its pretty common in sport. Not very productive in a discussion though.
Coevett wrote:
Mindweak even thinks Nick Willis dopes. He even reserves some of his most vicious bile for him (accusing him of being a tranny porn fapper).
Did he use those words? Well, the porn part is correct, and tranny is - in our modern times - almost the opposite of an insult.
Coevett wrote:
Now Nick Willis might be a doper, but there's no reason to believe he is unless you assume everybody (I mean literally EVERYBODY) at the top dopes.
He is a 1500 m specialist who after years and years of successfully racing 1500s, including "gold" in 2008, ran his 1500 m PR at age 32. In what world is that normal and not suspicious?
Remember also that over 50% of the medal winners over 1500 m of the last decade had increased their Hct so much that they even violated the extremely forgiving ABP rules (compared to "only" 11% in the marathon). See the often cited doping overview in the Sunday Times from 2015.
No, that doesn't mean that everybody dopes, but it implies that most 1500 m medal winners dope.
El Keniano wrote:
No, this:
None of that explains why Kiprop used EPO.
casual obsever wrote:
Coevett wrote:
Mindweak even thinks Nick Willis dopes. He even reserves some of his most vicious bile for him (accusing him of being a tranny porn fapper).
Did he use those words? Well, the porn part is correct, and tranny is - in our modern times - almost the opposite of an insult.
Coevett wrote:
Now Nick Willis might be a doper, but there's no reason to believe he is unless you assume everybody (I mean literally EVERYBODY) at the top dopes.
He is a 1500 m specialist who after years and years of successfully racing 1500s, including "gold" in 2008, ran his 1500 m PR at age 32. In what world is that normal and not suspicious?
Remember also that over 50% of the medal winners over 1500 m of the last decade had increased their Hct so much that they even violated the extremely forgiving ABP rules (compared to "only" 11% in the marathon). See the often cited doping overview in the Sunday Times from 2015.
No, that doesn't mean that everybody dopes, but it implies that most 1500 m medal winners dope.
True about the tranny porn being a compliment these days.
I don't think it's suspicious Nick Willis running a bit faster than his previous pb at the age of 32 in a crazy race where doped up Kiprop ran his 3:26 and even Mo Farah ran 3:28.
If you think about it, Nick Willis would likely set his pb at Monaco, a track which at most, athletes run on once every year. So it not really an indication that he's a doper at all that he ran his fastest time in the fastest race at Monaco. 32 can be on the edge of prime these days, especially for a guy like Willis if he is clean and was struggling with motivation for periods in his career when so many were juiced to the absolute gills.
And even if running a pb at 32 was odd, what would it mean exactly? That he started doping at 31 or 32 and so was clean when he was robbed of the Gold by Kiprop and Ramzi?