Libertarian vegan wrote:
Last clean record holder at every event?
I don't think anyone has ever been the record holder at every event, clean or not.
Libertarian vegan wrote:
Last clean record holder at every event?
I don't think anyone has ever been the record holder at every event, clean or not.
This thread reminds me of an Onion article from years ago
https://sports.theonion.com/non-doping-cyclists-finish-tour-de-france-1819569297
casual obsever wrote:
Good arguments, but to be consequent after excluding "European athletes of the 1970s and 1980s, where blood doping was rife", you should also exclude Cram.
Similarly, the American sprinters have a particularly bad history. So if you exclude certain countries because of their history, you should exclude American sprinters too, or even all Americans, like you exclude all Moroccans.
Or, be inconsequent.
ME: Pat, I would like to solve the puzzle ...
PS: Yeah, it's getting close ... Go ahead.
ME: Consistent and Inconsistent
PS: You got it!!
fartleks and bagels wrote:
epicTCK wrote:
also all white people your racist af bruh
I didn't realize that Henry Rono was white. And last i cheeked Portuguese weren't white.
Portuguese are Caucasians (white) as well as Spaniards. Not Anglo perhaps? What's next from you. Argentinians aren't white either?
Coevett wrote:
Libertarian vegan wrote:
Who was the last full natty at every event in track and field?
My guess
800m. David Little, Ralph Doubell and Peter Snell tied
1500m Steve Ovett
3000m Henry Rono
5000m David Moorcroft
10000m Henry Rono
Half Marathon Steve Jones
Marathon Carlos lopes
3000m steeple chase Henry Rono
Now who is the current clean record holder?
My guess
800m Alan Webb
1500m Alan Webb
3000m craig Mottram
5000m Craig Mottram
10000m Mark Nenow
Half Marathon Ryan Hall
Marathon Ryan Hall
3000m steeple chase Evan Jager
You think Steve Cram was dirty? His career appears to be about as natural as you could get. Teenage prodigy running age record times when his parents could barely afford to buy him a pair of proper running shoes, constantly injured in his prime etc.
The sad thing about Crammy is out of Coe, Ovett, and himself, he was the one youngest enough (just) to have been theoretically been able to take part in the EPO madness. Unfortunately, he couldn't string two training sessions together without getting injured after 88. He was still only 32 at the Barcelona olympics. Imagine a fit Cram on EPO?
100m Harold Abrahams
200m Harold Abrahams
400m Eric Liddell
800m Seb Coe
1500m Steve Cram
Mile Steve Cram
5000m David Moorcroft
current clean wr holders
100m Christophe Lemaitre
200m Christophe Lemaitre
400m Iwan Thomas
800m Seb Coe
1500m Nick Willis
Mile Steve Cram
5000m Craig Mottram
Can you please elaborate a bit about your wet dreams and sexual fantasies about Coe et al?
doctorj wrote:
fartleks and bagels wrote:
I didn't realize that Henry Rono was white. And last i cheeked Portuguese weren't white.
Portuguese are Caucasians (white) as well as Spaniards. Not Anglo perhaps? What's next from you. Argentinians aren't white either?
Correct
Coevett wrote:
Was there a big difference in PEDs in the 70s as compared to the 50's and 60s?
I thought steroids and amphetamimes were an even bigger problem amongst young Americans in the 1960s?
I know blood doping became popular in the 1970s, but it was still a difficult process I think, so not many would have been doing it.
I think one of the breakthroughs was the new form of HGH in the mid 1980s, which enabled the 100m sea level times to come down rapidly (the 100m non altitude WR improved by less than 2/10ths of a second in nearly 60 years until Carl Lewis et al. It's gone down over 4/10ths of a second in less than 30 years).
Aouita was probably the first middle-distance PED user, taking advantage of the new HGH available in the USA and guessing correctly that roids can be of benefit to distance runners if used for training recovery and if combined with blood doping.
Thank you for posting this. Now I know without question that I can just skip past anything you ever write, since you know nothing about everything.
Amphetamines were used in many sports as far back as the 1940s. That is when I can confirm they were used because people admitted it during that time. Maybe it was in use before, but certainly by then. Baseball players, cyclists, many sports. Do some research first when you don't know anything.
All drugs became a problem in America in the '60s because the biggest cohort in American history turned 20 in 1965, and the attitudes of the day had changed from how they were for that group's parents in the 1940s and 50s. Use your head.
Amphetamines were in widespread use and you can confirm this by looking at the history of many dead musicians like Ray Charles, Johnny Cash, Hank Williams, etc.. But you can also confirm that use goes back FURTHER than the 1960s and that they were in widespread use in Europe (where they were invented and used heavily in World War II).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_and_culture_of_substituted_amphetaminesAlso, the use was not any heavier by athletes than other addicts and the use was not heavier than Europe (where cycling superchampion Fausto Coppi used it in the late 1930s -- and thousands of others).
Blood doping became controversial in the 1970s, and better known by the 80s as you had names like Kaarlo Maaninka, and Martti Vainio shedding light on the practice. It was "invented" in the late 60s however. Realize that it is not much different from a blood transfusion. You are just re-infusing "blood-packed" blood. Maaninka admitted to blood transfusion before the 1980 Olympics and Vainio was caught for steroids at the '84 Olympics (you ought to know the role blood doping played here?). A Swede invented the process and experimented with it in the late 60s. Many people from 1968 to 1984 admitted to using the process including the 1984 US Cycling Team, Francesco Moser, the list goes on.
The process (for doping purposes) was banned by the IOC in 1985 and then people stopped admitting it. But it was continued up to and including this year. If you read The Reasoned Decision, you will find that the process is still in widespread use by the World's top athletes now TODAY.
Your idea of HGH is more or less right. But it was later, becoming a problem after 1990 and specifically. noticed at the 1992 Olympics and the Atlanta Olympics in '96. It was not just sprinters that were using it either. Big with swimmers, middle distance, distance and pro sports. Also still heavily used.
Your comment about Aouita being the first is so idiotic that I cannot take time to fathom the depths of your ignorance. Look up Martti Vainio (who was caught for combining steroids to make his blood doping more efficient in 1984) and you will realize that Aouita came onto the scene in 1983.
Soviet and East German swimmers and middle-distance females were on sophisticated doping programs in the 60s and 70s and 80s (and Russia continues the practice today). Certainly the men were too. So, clearly it was being done 20-30 years before Aouita ran 3:31/13:05.
doctorj wrote:
Coevett wrote:
You think Steve Cram was dirty? His career appears to be about as natural as you could get. Teenage prodigy running age record times when his parents could barely afford to buy him a pair of proper running shoes, constantly injured in his prime etc.
The sad thing about Crammy is out of Coe, Ovett, and himself, he was the one youngest enough (just) to have been theoretically been able to take part in the EPO madness. Unfortunately, he couldn't string two training sessions together without getting injured after 88. He was still only 32 at the Barcelona olympics. Imagine a fit Cram on EPO?
100m Harold Abrahams
200m Harold Abrahams
400m Eric Liddell
800m Seb Coe
1500m Steve Cram
Mile Steve Cram
5000m David Moorcroft
current clean wr holders
100m Christophe Lemaitre
200m Christophe Lemaitre
400m Iwan Thomas
800m Seb Coe
1500m Nick Willis
Mile Steve Cram
5000m Craig Mottram
Can you please elaborate a bit about your wet dreams and sexual fantasies about Coe et al?
Hmmm, sorry to disappoint, but it's called being proud of your heritage. I do think, however, that some of the aging white suburban hobby joggers who get so upset at the idea that Kenyan young bucks do not actually represent a genetic master race, are indulging in something a bit sexual, a bit of white cuckold fantasy, and definately a bit...ewww.
wafflecopter wrote:
Coevett wrote:
100m Harold Abrahams
200m Harold Abrahams
400m Eric Liddell
800m Seb Coe
1500m Steve Cram
Mile Steve Cram
5000m David Moorcroft
current clean wr holders
100m Christophe Lemaitre
200m Christophe Lemaitre
400m Iwan Thomas
800m Seb Coe
1500m Nick Willis
Mile Steve Cram
5000m Craig Mottram
Lol. Keep living in fantasy land.
The only reason even Lemaitre made that list is because there have been no viable Anglo-Saxon sprinters.
The ugly American wrote:
Coevett wrote:
Was there a big difference in PEDs in the 70s as compared to the 50's and 60s?
I thought steroids and amphetamimes were an even bigger problem amongst young Americans in the 1960s?
I know blood doping became popular in the 1970s, but it was still a difficult process I think, so not many would have been doing it.
I think one of the breakthroughs was the new form of HGH in the mid 1980s, which enabled the 100m sea level times to come down rapidly (the 100m non altitude WR improved by less than 2/10ths of a second in nearly 60 years until Carl Lewis et al. It's gone down over 4/10ths of a second in less than 30 years).
Aouita was probably the first middle-distance PED user, taking advantage of the new HGH available in the USA and guessing correctly that roids can be of benefit to distance runners if used for training recovery and if combined with blood doping.
Thank you for posting this. Now I know without question that I can just skip past anything you ever write, since you know nothing about everything.
Amphetamines were used in many sports as far back as the 1940s. That is when I can confirm they were used because people admitted it during that time. Maybe it was in use before, but certainly by then. Baseball players, cyclists, many sports. Do some research first when you don't know anything.
All drugs became a problem in America in the '60s because the biggest cohort in American history turned 20 in 1965, and the attitudes of the day had changed from how they were for that group's parents in the 1940s and 50s. Use your head.
Amphetamines were in widespread use and you can confirm this by looking at the history of many dead musicians like Ray Charles, Johnny Cash, Hank Williams, etc.. But you can also confirm that use goes back FURTHER than the 1960s and that they were in widespread use in Europe (where they were invented and used heavily in World War II).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_and_culture_of_substituted_amphetaminesAlso, the use was not any heavier by athletes than other addicts and the use was not heavier than Europe (where cycling superchampion Fausto Coppi used it in the late 1930s -- and thousands of others).
Blood doping became controversial in the 1970s, and better known by the 80s as you had names like Kaarlo Maaninka, and Martti Vainio shedding light on the practice. It was "invented" in the late 60s however. Realize that it is not much different from a blood transfusion. You are just re-infusing "blood-packed" blood. Maaninka admitted to blood transfusion before the 1980 Olympics and Vainio was caught for steroids at the '84 Olympics (you ought to know the role blood doping played here?). A Swede invented the process and experimented with it in the late 60s. Many people from 1968 to 1984 admitted to using the process including the 1984 US Cycling Team, Francesco Moser, the list goes on.
The process (for doping purposes) was banned by the IOC in 1985 and then people stopped admitting it. But it was continued up to and including this year. If you read The Reasoned Decision, you will find that the process is still in widespread use by the World's top athletes now TODAY.
Your idea of HGH is more or less right. But it was later, becoming a problem after 1990 and specifically. noticed at the 1992 Olympics and the Atlanta Olympics in '96. It was not just sprinters that were using it either. Big with swimmers, middle distance, distance and pro sports. Also still heavily used.
Your comment about Aouita being the first is so idiotic that I cannot take time to fathom the depths of your ignorance. Look up Martti Vainio (who was caught for combining steroids to make his blood doping more efficient in 1984) and you will realize that Aouita came onto the scene in 1983.
Soviet and East German swimmers and middle-distance females were on sophisticated doping programs in the 60s and 70s and 80s (and Russia continues the practice today). Certainly the men were too. So, clearly it was being done 20-30 years before Aouita ran 3:31/13:05.
Hmmm..well that's quite a vicious diatrabe considering that you don't actually appear to disagree with anything I said other than that concerning Aouita.
Yes I know all about East German dopers you moron, I was the first person on an English lanugage website to reveal that Beyer's old coach was quite recently convicted of supplying underage athletes (in reunified Germany) life endagering illegal drugs.
You point to a minor Finnish runner as proof that 'Aouita wasn't the first'. It's quite plausible to believe that Aouita was the first 'great' to achieve his success almost entirely through peds, although I guess it would be reasonable to be doubtful about Juantaurena given his nationality. I don't believe Herb Elliott, Snell, Ryun, Walker, Scott, Ovett etc were taking peds. The fact that a Moroccan comes on the scene with such a dubious career progression, first man apparently capable of spitting out a world class 800m time one week, a 10000m the next week, and an elite 3000 steeplechase in between just for fun, just at the moment the new HGH was hitting the gyms (and who later allegedly told his Ozzie athletes that HGH was his drug of choice) does suggest he may well have been the first.
Coevett wrote:
Hmmm, sorry to disappoint, but it's called being proud of your heritage. I do think, however, that some of the aging white suburban hobby joggers who get so upset at the idea that Kenyan young bucks do not actually represent a genetic master race, are indulging in something a bit sexual, a bit of white cuckold fantasy, and definately a bit...ewww.
How definate are you about it?
Coevett wrote:
Hmmm..well that's quite a vicious diatrabe considering that you don't actually appear to disagree with anything I said other than that concerning Aouita.
Yes I know all about East German dopers you moron, I was the first person on an English lanugage website to reveal that Beyer's old coach was quite recently convicted of supplying underage athletes (in reunified Germany) life endagering illegal drugs.
You point to a minor Finnish runner as proof that 'Aouita wasn't the first'. It's quite plausible to believe that Aouita was the first 'great' to achieve his success almost entirely through peds, although I guess it would be reasonable to be doubtful about Juantaurena given his nationality. I don't believe Herb Elliott, Snell, Ryun, Walker, Scott, Ovett etc were taking peds. The fact that a Moroccan comes on the scene with such a dubious career progression, first man apparently capable of spitting out a world class 800m time one week, a 10000m the next week, and an elite 3000 steeplechase in between just for fun, just at the moment the new HGH was hitting the gyms (and who later allegedly told his Ozzie athletes that HGH was his drug of choice) does suggest he may well have been the first.
You are right. After re-reading your post, I was wrong and it was mean-spirited and not warranted. I think these kinds of topics bring out the worst in me and I am normally a fan of your posts as I started running in '78 (at age 11) right at the beginning of the Ovett streak and the British dominance of MD running. Have stayed a fan of them right through today. I will try to not fly off the handle like that again.
webb wasnt clean.looking at his muscular cuts,and shredded physique,he at least took anavar,or winstrol.
5000m Craig Mottram
You think Solinsky was juicing? And you really think not one single African under 12:55 is clean? Wow....just....WOW....
Coevett wrote:
Hmmm, sorry to disappoint, but it's called being proud of your heritage. I do think, however, that some of the aging white suburban hobby joggers who get so upset at the idea that Kenyan young bucks do not actually represent a genetic master race, are indulging in something a bit sexual, a bit of white cuckold fantasy, and definately a bit...ewww.
Honestly, this board sometimes ...
El Keniano wrote:
Coevett wrote:
Hmmm, sorry to disappoint, but it's called being proud of your heritage. I do think, however, that some of the aging white suburban hobby joggers who get so upset at the idea that Kenyan young bucks do not actually represent a genetic master race, are indulging in something a bit sexual, a bit of white cuckold fantasy, and definately a bit...ewww.
Honestly, this board sometimes ...
wish it was just sometimes
The ugly American wrote:
Soviet and East German swimmers and middle-distance females were on sophisticated doping programs in the 60s and 70s and 80s (and Russia continues the practice today). Certainly the men were too. So, clearly it was being done 20-30 years before Aouita ran 3:31/13:05.
What do you consider so "sophisticated" about the GDR doping program? The primary steroid they were using was simple oral-Turinabol. And some supplemental PEDs were testosterone esters and amphetamines. So, nothing too shocking there.
The Turinabol was very effective with the female mid-d runners. According to GDR training records, they were experiencing performance improvements over four years as follows: "400m (women) 4–5 sec; 800 m (women) 5–10 sec; 1500 m (women) 7–10 sec."
http://clinchem.aaccjnls.org/content/43/7/126220 yrs or so later, Russia followed the GDR blueprint for their female mid-d runners using oral Turinabol as their primary poison with a little O2-vector doping sprinkled in. For those that Turinabol was too androgenic then Oxandrolone was used. And we all saw how that turned out with some of the high-responders winning Olympic & WC medals right & left (e.g., Zaripova, Savinova, Poistagova, Krivoshapka, Abitova).
The Beks wrote:
3200y5000 wrote:
Current records from 800 and down are clean. Even Bolt (I don't think he cares enough to risk his health).
Mile- Steve Cram
5000 and 10000 are clean.
Half Marathon's clean.
Marathon's either Kipchoge if you count Breaking2, or Wilson Kipsang otherwise.
If the 5 and 10 are clean, wouldn't you assume the marathon would be Bekele as well? Assuming not Kipchoge Breaking2. And if you dispute Bekele in the 'thon than Kipchoge has his 2:03:05 from London for next on all-time list.
agreed. have no idea why he said kipsang
epicTCK wrote:
The Beks wrote:
If the 5 and 10 are clean, wouldn't you assume the marathon would be Bekele as well? Assuming not Kipchoge Breaking2. And if you dispute Bekele in the 'thon than Kipchoge has his 2:03:05 from London for next on all-time list.
agreed. have no idea why he said kipsang
no knowledge of the sport, that's why this thread is even here
Libertarian vegan wrote:
Who was the last full natty at every event in track and field?
My guess
800m. David Little, Ralph Doubell and Peter Snell tied
1500m Steve Ovett
3000m Henry Rono
5000m David Moorcroft
10000m Henry Rono
Half Marathon Steve Jones
Marathon Carlos lopes
3000m steeple chase Henry Rono
Now who is the current clean record holder?
My guess
800m Alan Webb
1500m Alan Webb
3000m craig Mottram
5000m Craig Mottram
10000m Mark Nenow
Half Marathon Ryan Hall
Marathon Ryan Hall
3000m steeple chase Evan Jager
Can someone this original post to me? The first list is "who was the last full natty" then the second list is "current clean record holder". Shouldn't those be the same people? How is Ovett the last full natty yet Webb who came after him is the clean record holder?