Jim Ryun...getting it off my chest

KevinM-I knew it was only a matter of time before you jumped in on this one. I am missing the track Trivial Pursuit nights. I am thinking Chuck G, Ned and I made a pretty tough squad.

Sure you did. On one team. Versus me.

I never said Kip wouldn't have medaled at Mexico City. I wrote that he would have been hard-pressed. My opinion is that Kip couldn't have beaten Ryun and Clarke at sea level in 1968. That having been said there is no doubt that Kip was one of the best 1,500/5,000 runners in the world from 1964 to 1972.

I'm lucky enough to own a copy of a French documentary which covers the Ryun/Keino rivalry. After watching it my admiration for Kip Keino grew greatly. As great as he was as a runner his is a much greater human being.

[quote]Jayhawk wrote:

I never said Kip wouldn't have medaled at Mexico City. I wrote that he would have been hard-pressed. My opinion is that Kip couldn't have beaten Ryun and Clarke at sea level in 1968. That having been said there is no doubt that Kip was one of the best 1,500/5,000 runners in the world from 1964 to 1972.

quote]

There is another factor besides altitude. Don't forget, Ryun had been sick and injured that year and was not having a good year. His training had not gone well. He won the Trials, but did not feel good doing so. His 3:37 at altitude was a great performance beaten by an even greater performance by Keino.

At sea level, it would have been closer, but IMHO, Keino would have still have won. He was having a career year, and Ryun was just not at his best. (No world records, after having set 4 the previous 2 years.)

Altitude certainly hurt Clarke's chances, but he was the favorite 4 years earlier in Tokyo (at sea level) and lost. Then in the 1970 Commonwealth Games 5,000 where he was the favorite again he lost (again) at sea level to Keino. Clarke was just snakebit, and his non-cyclical training methods (no peaking) probably contributed.

A great post from one great runner giving praise to another great runner....priceless...!!!

Drew: I am pretty sure they went out in 61 so it can be figured out (give the last 100 of the first 400 a 15.25 sec time and go from there). For those interested, Ron Clarke was another great runner who didn't have any gold medals. You can easily take this whole thing to extremes by saying if you didn't make a US team you were a loser, or if you made it to the Olympics but didn't win you were a loser or if you won a Gold medal but failed to get a $million in endorsements you were a loser. I don't see any losers when it comes to training and making yourself fit and healthy. Probably most losers are the millionaires who don't have their health or any experiences that sports can bring along the way.

wannabe. wrote:

Front page: Jim Ryun "defended" by his son... That Jim Ryun needs somebody to "defend" his running career is something that would only be possible in the alternate reality known as letsrun.com...

There is no doubt that Drew was inspired to comment about his dad only because of his deep respect for him. It should go without saying Jim didn't put him up to it...Although I have not had any in-depth interpersonal relationships with the RYAN family...you can say I do have a connection.

I rode the bus to school that his mother drove...His HS (Wichita East) was my high schools rival, and all benchmarks of running were always set around what Jim accomplished...

I followed his carrier at Kansas...and after college...still impressed! I watched his son(s)?, yes you Drew, and his daughter run for Lawrence HS...and followed the RYANs' that went to Kansas.

Even from a distance, without having to actually get into a conversation you knew this was a close and very loving family...and I know that running was a true part of their life, however, if you ask them what they have gotten out of life the most I am sure they will say it was the time they spent serving "their god" and with their family.

A quicky to Patti...also being a Native American Indian...I followed your carrier with much interest also! Thanks for your great post about Jim. Although he didn't win the gold, his heart is sure made of it....

There are some great posts on this thread....It is one of the few that I read each and every one...thanks for letting me give my two cents...

Maddog...

jtupper wrote:

I don't see any losers when it comes to training and making yourself fit and healthy.

With sentiments like this you could be a decent coach.

"A quicky to Patti...also being a Native American Indian...I followed your carrier with much interest also! Thanks for your great post about Jim. Although he didn't win the gold, his heart is sure made of it...." Maddog

Hi Maddog,

How are you? Nice to 'meet' you here. I've read to you on another thread. How's your running?

When Danny and I first got married we travelled to the Southwest to WINGS. They were floored when we walked in the door (Will Channing's art gallery on the Plaza) and almost collapsed when we said we wanted to help them out.

Our idea was to live on the a reservation and nuture the runners along. We eventually were offered a place to live on the Santa Clara Pueblo and unfortunately, we never stayed the first night. What we ended up doing was far from running. We became Foster Parents to 5 NA teens. We lived in Santa Fe right off the Plaza for awhile before moving to Tucson, AZ. to foster other teens.

We participated in the torch run, I think it was called the Friendship Run (this was in 1992) and the torch went to all four corners. Danny had the honor of carrying the torch to the Governor on the Plaza the final day. We ran with the WINGS kids for the days they had the torch. There's a story to this and it was such an honor for us to be there at that time.

There's a runner out there named Tito Naranho. He's an artist and a marathoner runner. He's older now and lives Mora, whom we stayed with for a bit, until I saw the bear marks on the tree! Another story!! LOL!

We saw some amazing H/S runners. We visited the Rehoboth Christian School, which was/is still, I think coached by Elmer Yazzie.

I loved the Santa Fe H/S running jacket, someday I hope to get one. Have you seen it? It's beautiful. I enjoyed living in the Southwest and hope to go back someday.....soon. We hope to go run across the country after the trials in 2008. In Joy, Patti

Well, great to "meet" you too. Not to steal any more space off this thread....go to the index and look for a title of message to Patti....I think I can answer some of the questions and thoughts you have posted...

Ian Stewart won the 1970 Commonwealth 5000m, not Keino.

Les wrote:[/

Altitude certainly hurt Clarke's chances, but he was the favorite 4 years earlier in Tokyo (at sea level) and lost. Then in the 1970 Commonwealth Games 5,000 where he was the favorite again he lost (again) at sea level to Keino. Clarke was just snakebit, and his non-cyclical training methods (no peaking) probably contributed.

please sir, can I have some wrote:

Gerry,

Bekele could have lapped you or Ryun in a 5k.

That shows your ignorance. Bekele's pr is 12:37. Lindgren's is 13:20/13:21 (12:53.0 conversion). Bekele would have to run another 20 SECONDS FASTER to lap Lindgren. Don't forget also, there is a 40-year difference between these athletes.

canyonero wrote:

That shows your ignorance. Bekele's pr is 12:37. Lindgren's is 13:20/13:21 (12:53.0 conversion). Bekele would have to run another 20 SECONDS FASTER to lap Lindgren. .

OK, I was exaggerating.

Bekele would lap Lindgren at 10k.....happy now?

Hey, I will say it AGAIN! - Gerry and Ryun were two of the best US runners ever. It is just too bad they ran their best races when they were 18/19 years old in non-Olympic races, instead of a little later in the Olympic Games races. Luck? I don't know......was it "lucky" they were born talented? I guess so. If we give them credit for their wins, lets let them take some credit for their losses too.

And for those defending Ron Clarke.......c'mon, he CHOSE to not peak. He cared more about times and how many miles he ran than winning the big one, and that is why he did NOT win the big one. Don't make excuses for him. He was one hell of a time-trialist though, that is for sure.

Hey, some guys set WR's but never win gold medals (Clarke, Ryun, Lindgren, etc)

Some guys win gold medals but don't set WR's (Baldini, Borzakovsky.....plenty of guys, take your pick)

AND SOME DO BOTH: Bikila, Bekele, Geb, Keino, Coe, Ovett, Viren, Schul, Lopes ...etc, etc.

I think the runners that DO BOTH (ESPECIALLY the ones that set multiple WR's and win MULTIPLE golds and silvers....... LIKE KEINO ......) are the ULTIMATE cream of the crop.

Don't you????

(and of course the Ryun fans find the Ryun vs Keino question of who was better "not interesting.")

Has there ever been a miler superior to Ryun? I don't think so. Several runners might beat Ryun on a good day, but i don't think there as ever been anyone who we could say is superior. El G. has better times, but on a better track with more competition.

Perhaps Ryun wasn't as OBSESSED with running as you are with running him down. He's a legend. Deal with it.

I agree with jtupper's points and wish to add it is immature to define success as only by medals and trophies. What if Alan Webb runs a 3:46 mile this summer at Oslo but places 3rd. Is he a loser? Was K. Bekele a loser when he was outkicked in the Olympic Games by Hicham El G. in the 5,000m?

Ron Clarke is one of my personal favorites of all time who didn't get a gold medal. He was dominant over many years, so how can he be labeled as anything onther than a winner?

Tinman

My bad. It was the 1966 Commonwealth Games that Keino beat Ron Clarke.

wtf wrote:

Ian Stewart won the 1970 Commonwealth 5000m, not Keino.

Les wrote:[/

Altitude certainly hurt Clarke's chances, but he was the favorite 4 years earlier in Tokyo (at sea level) and lost. Then in the 1970 Commonwealth Games 5,000 where he was the favorite again he lost (again) at sea level to Keino. Clarke was just snakebit, and his non-cyclical training methods (no peaking) probably contributed.

Stick's four points, after an incredible thread with Drew Ryun, Gerry Lindgren, Patti Dillon, and Jack Daniels among other notables (the kid riding Mrs. Ryun's school bus?) contributing to clear the air about the sort of man Congressman Ryun is and what happened in '68 and '72, make this excellent thread almost perfect. Thank you, Stick, for starting it with good, honest intentions and for ending it on a high note and with class. If WeJo ever writes a 'Guide to Good Thread Writing and Behavior,' this thread and Stick's contributions to it will have to be highlighted (and the goofball bashing Ryun and Lindgren to prove he can have his opinion will also be there as a foil).

Two quick notes about Lindgren and Ryun. Lindgren won 11 out of a possible 12 NCAA championships - and the one he lost was to Ryun in an indoor 2 mile. Pay back maybe for the staged indoor 2 mile match race in 1964 when both were still in HS where Lindgren ran his Beamonesque 8:40 chasing Ron Clarke and Ryun DNF'd. When the AAU didn't want to recognize Ryun's half mile record in 1968, it was Lindgren who called a press conference in Chicago to say they were out of line (as he did in 1965 to the NCAA in its boycott/ban on AAU races) - and the AAU recognized the record.

My daughter last year nominated Lindgren to the USATF Hall of Fame as a home schooling project. The nomination process was not difficult; she was told he had been nominated several times before but had not cleared the ballot selection barrier. Why not? There are several possible reasons, one of which is the lack of an Olympic medal on Lindgren's running career resume. We called Congressman Ryun and Billy Mills and asked for them to contact the USATF to see if their endorsement couldn't get him on the ballot. I frankly didn't expect to talk to either man or have much hope that this gambit would work.

Sure enough we got an intern in Ryun's office who said he would "share my concern with the Congressman" and get back to me. I thought, "Sure, war in Iraq, congressional budget meetings, we're not constituents... what are the odds I'll hear back from this office?" Half an hour later the intern called and asked for names and addresses for whom Hannah wanted the Congressman to write. He said Ryun was eager to do anything he could to help advance Lindgren's nomination. (Mills, by the way, was as eager to help and as generous with his time and letter writing.) USATF's Bill Roe re-worked the HoF balloting process this year, Lindgren was on the ballot, and he was elected.

Jim Ryun is a class act and I'm delighted that he is recognized as such even in the mud slinging pits of the Lets Run message boards (and that his son is obviously a fine man, too). Hannah told me there were rumors that Ryun had helped Lindgren out of a bind associated with his disappearance years ago - of which help, of course, there is no public record and I wonder if Lindgren even knows about it in detail. It's been said that Christianity has not been tried and found wanting but found difficult and left untried. In Ryun we see an edifying Christian that walks the very difficult talk.

psaltejohn wrote:

Two quick notes about Lindgren and Ryun. Lindgren won 11 out of a possible 12 NCAA championships - and the one he lost was to Ryun in an indoor 2 mile. Pay back maybe for the staged indoor 2 mile match race in 1964 when both were still in HS where Lindgren ran his Beamonesque 8:40 chasing Ron Clarke and Ryun DNF'd. When the AAU didn't want to recognize Ryun's half mile record in 1968, it was Lindgren who called a press conference in Chicago to say they were out of line (as he did in 1965 to the NCAA in its boycott/ban on AAU races) - and the AAU recognized the record.

Not to be picky here, because it was a great post, but the 2-mile where Lindgren and Ryun met in HS was in Dec. 1963 and featured only high school runners. Lindgren ran 9:00.0 in that race, and I believe Ryun did finish after falling with about a 9:20 or so. Lindgren ran his 8:40.0 in Daly City (again) in Feb. 1964 against Clarke. He split 4:20/4:19.

Also, when Ryun set his 880 World Record of 1:44 in Terre Haute, it was in 1966, not 1968.