people really recommend squats and deadlifts? I'm pretty fast and have never done them

Runningart2004 wrote:

Coach wrote:

Alan definitely is not reciting from a book or magazine. From what I've read over the years he's well versed in many training methods and can apply principles. Agree or disagree his opinions are thought provoking.

I've been a big advocate that runners of all levels should lift weights beyond the nautilus endurance circuit we all grew up with. I've been advocating this for a good 8 years or so. Rupp and Farah lift weights and still people don't buy into it. Numerous studies show benefits and people don't buy into it.

I get it. Running attracts a certain set of people who are intrinsically against the gym culture. It is what it is.

Is lifting gonna knock minutes off your time? No probably not, but it's an "extra" like stretching, foam rolling, massage, etc that could be beneficial.

Alan

This picture shows why distance runners don´t like to lift (elite distance runners together with world class discus thrower Daniel Ståhl).

Steer_clear_of_them wrote:

No, I didn't. In fact, I didn't even do back squats, what I did was just Bulgarian split squats and Romanian deadlifts at roughly 90% of 1RM for 3-5 reps of 2 sets, and I am sure the form is okay, but they still wrecked my back and hip.

Running is already taxing enough on the body, especially when you are doing high mileage, adding heavy lifting to the mix is clearly too much, at least for the mere mortals like me.

90% RM for 3-5 reps? Were these clusters? You're not doing 3-5 straight reps at 90% RM.

You did an exercise which is more focused on lower back strength than another other exercise (RDL) and wonder why your back is sore?

Did you do this workout multiple times? One time? How many times a week?

The fault isn't in the lifting, the fault is in your incorrect programming.

Alan

And did you preclude this lifting with months of body weight and mobility work and lighter weight work building up your infrastructure so you can actually handle 85 to 90% of your max?

Alan

Runningart2004 wrote:

A runner won't gain weight by weight lifting. You run too much and don't have the genetics.

During the Olympic marathon trials, Masback mentioned that Rupp had to dial back his weightlifting because he was becoming "too strong." I don't know what that meant, but I guessed he meant Rupp was becoming bulky.

He is naturally very thin, and he runs over 120mpw. And yet he could reach a point where lifting too heavy becomes detrimental to his running. Why is that?

Just Another Hobby Jogger wrote:

Masback mentioned that Rupp had to dial back his weightlifting because he was becoming "too strong."

I don't know what that meant, but I guessed he meant Rupp was becoming bulky.

He is naturally very thin, and he runs over 120mpw. And yet he could reach a point where lifting too heavy becomes detrimental to his running. Why is that?

Maybe you guessed wrong, and Masback meant what he said - "was becoming too strong" doesn´t necessarily mean "was becoming bulky". Rupp became strong enough and switched to maintenance mode, doesn´t that seem more obvious? Especially as we know that he doesn´t do hypertrophic weight training. Even if he tries to, he would have hard time to "become bulky".

U.N.O. wrote:

Just Another Hobby Jogger wrote:

Masback mentioned that Rupp had to dial back his weightlifting because he was becoming "too strong."

I don't know what that meant, but I guessed he meant Rupp was becoming bulky.

He is naturally very thin, and he runs over 120mpw. And yet he could reach a point where lifting too heavy becomes detrimental to his running. Why is that?

Maybe you guessed wrong, and Masback meant what he said - "was becoming too strong" doesn´t necessarily mean "was becoming bulky". Rupp became strong enough and switched to maintenance mode, doesn´t that seem more obvious? Especially as we know that he doesn´t do hypertrophic weight training. Even if he tries to, he would have hard time to "become bulky".

I remember hearing this, too (not sure if it was this broadcast, though) but it was regarding his UPPER BODY.

well,. wrote:

I've been a big advocate that runners of all levels should lift weights

Just STFU and go to the obesity weight gaining forum.

Alan can help you look like this!

https://ixquick-proxy.com/do/spg/show_picture.pl?l=english&rais=1&oiu=http%3A%2F%2Fnpcnewsonline.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2015%2F07%2Fwb.jpg&sp=bef13be84568e13cd57e609e3cac5dbf

Here you go wrote:

Alan can help you look like this!

https://ixquick-proxy.com/do/spg/show_picture.pl?l=english&rais=1&oiu=http%3A%2F%2Fnpcnewsonline.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2015%2F07%2Fwb.jpg&sp=bef13be84568e13cd57e609e3cac5dbf

...which is almost as ridiculous looking as a grown man who is 6' tall and weighs 140 lbs.

Squats??? wrote:

So, I watched that Galen and Al Sal video again, and I gotta say, I didn't see any real "lifting". More bio-mechanical and core stuff. He was doing squats with 95 lbs and one-led deadlifts with a 12lb. medicine ball. That's not "lifting". I didn't see him doing any heavy reps of 5 squats or deadlifts.

Really?

Please watch this entire video.

How many reps did Galen Rupp squat with a fairly heavy barbell?

You will now want to argue for 3 pages about how much the barbell in the video actually weighs.

Does the barbell that Galen Rupp is doing squats with count as 'heavy'... or not?

What is your expert opinion?

He's still doing cool "video exercises". But, if you read what Al Sal says yes they do "heavy stuff". What is heavy stuff? Heavy stuff is weight which causes you to fail at around 4-6 reps or less. So really anything above 85% 1RM I would classify as "heavy" as it creates a much higher neuromuscular demand than sets of 10 at 75%. Also, lighter weight lifted explosively. That's what Galen is doing in the video, he's lifting 105lbs but doing it explosively (watch the bar). So, you lift "heavy"...say sets of 4-5 at 85%. Then your progress to more explosive lifts (Galen in the above video) and more "functional" cool kid lifts. Or you can do non linear progression and have days of pure strength mixed in with days of explosive and "functional" strength.

Alan

Runningart2004 wrote:

He's still doing cool "video exercises". But, if you read what Al Sal says yes they do "heavy stuff". What is heavy stuff? Heavy stuff is weight which causes you to fail at around 4-6 reps or less. So really anything above 85% 1RM I would classify as "heavy" as it creates a much higher neuromuscular demand than sets of 10 at 75%. Also, lighter weight lifted explosively. That's what Galen is doing in the video, he's lifting 105lbs but doing it explosively (watch the bar). So, you lift "heavy"...say sets of 4-5 at 85%. Then your progress to more explosive lifts (Galen in the above video) and more "functional" cool kid lifts. Or you can do non linear progression and have days of pure strength mixed in with days of explosive and "functional" strength.

Alan

Alan, you are 5'5" and 200 pounds?

Squats??? wrote:

I started this thread mainly because I think people come on this forum to troll and post bad information. I just don't see how anyone can go heavy with squats and deadlifts and be serious about running. I question the effectiveness of the lifts in making gains while running and I think everyone would just get injured. Maybe, there is a PED aspect I am not factoring in. Maybe with the use of PEDs , lifting can be done in a way to not injure you. I still don't see why anyone would do them.

It's not that hard, but obviously you shouldn't add heavy squats to a routine for the first time when you're in the middle of your season, right at the razor's edge of overtraining. That's stupid.

You start during a relatively easy phase of training, with weeks of easy lifting to prepare yourself. The goal is to eventually be doing 3-4 reps at 80% to 85% of your one rep max, but you start off doing much less. If you build up to it over a few months, then you can incorporate squats into a very heavy training regimen, and it won't break you down. The kind of lifting that you should be building towards should not leave you particularly sore once you've been doing it for a while. As Alan said, it's more about neuromuscular strength gains (learning to recruit more fibers) than it is about hypertrophy.

It's no more difficult to work this kind of lifting into your schedule than it is to include sprint work. Both have the POTENTIAL to trash your muscles. Both are frequently neglected. Both can have big benefits.

A version of this topic appears every couple of months.

Someone should compile RunningArts posts. He is extremely consistent in his message. Lifting can help if you do it correctly. Pretty much every elite athlete/coach knows this and use it in some way.

I personally believe in lifting heavy. It has made it possible for me to run. It's helped balanced my body.

In XC skiing the US national team views lifting as supplementary exercise. The goals of lifting are balancing out the body, general athleticism and injury prevention. Lifting should ideally work muscles in ways that aren't sport specific but that improve athleticism. The goal is maintain general athleticism and mobility.

Nordic skiers developed specific fitness doing specific race imitation workouts. (Bounding, rollerskiing, snow skiing). The most important part of training is nailing these ski specific workouts. Lifting is something that allows the body to handle this high level of extremely specific training.

Also: Most distance athletes aren't consistent in their lifting. Just like there is old man speed there is old man strength. It takes years lifting to develop a lifting base just like it takes year of running to develop a running base. If you lift for running you should have a long term lifting plan that works on different lifting skills over the year in preparation for a goal race.

Runningart2004 wrote:

He's still doing cool "video exercises". But, if you read what Al Sal says yes they do "heavy stuff". What is heavy stuff? Heavy stuff is weight which causes you to fail at around 4-6 reps or less. So really anything above 85% 1RM I would classify as "heavy" as it creates a much higher neuromuscular demand than sets of 10 at 75%. Also, lighter weight lifted explosively. That's what Galen is doing in the video, he's lifting 105lbs but doing it explosively (watch the bar). So, you lift "heavy"...say sets of 4-5 at 85%. Then your progress to more explosive lifts (Galen in the above video) and more "functional" cool kid lifts. Or you can do non linear progression and have days of pure strength mixed in with days of explosive and "functional" strength.

Alan

Alan the Assclown,

You always seems to post awful advice. I really think you are here trolling, trying to get people injured. I can 100% guarantee you that no one under AlSal gets anywhere close to putting 85% of max on their back.

rjm33 wrote:

Squats??? wrote:

So, I watched that Galen and Al Sal video again, and I gotta say, I didn't see any real "lifting". More bio-mechanical and core stuff. He was doing squats with 95 lbs and one-led deadlifts with a 12lb. medicine ball. That's not "lifting". I didn't see him doing any heavy reps of 5 squats or deadlifts.

Really?

Please watch this entire video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FaM-tULWwH0

How many reps did Galen Rupp squat with a fairly heavy barbell?

You will now want to argue for 3 pages about how much the barbell in the video actually weighs.

Does the barbell that Galen Rupp is doing squats with count as 'heavy'... or not?

What is your expert opinion?

So has a barbell that weighs 32lbs. Those plates are very light, although they are big - they are mainly used for girls to do deadlifts and cleans. Each plate is 10lbs. I think (never used those). So it looks like he is doing 93 lbs. he also has very bad form. I don't think he should be doing squats with any weight on his back. He should get a hex bar or do goblets or step ups. That looks painful

But he knows the weightlifting lingo. You have to give him that. Alan, you are 5'5" and 200 pounds? Do you even lift weights? Can you post a pic showing your physique?

Alan, I am a very pretty blonde weightlifter. You really know your weightlifting. You know all the weightifting terms. YOu sound like an expert. I bet you have a very buff body. I do. Can I see what you look like alll hot and sweaty? I bet you are a hunk. If you send me a pic of you all hot and heavy and sweaty I will send one of me too. YOu will love how I look in gym shorts and wife beater shirt.

Just Another Hobby Jogger wrote:

Runningart2004 wrote:

A runner won't gain weight by weight lifting. You run too much and don't have the genetics.

During the Olympic marathon trials, Masback mentioned that Rupp had to dial back his weightlifting because he was becoming "too strong." I don't know what that meant, but I guessed he meant Rupp was becoming bulky.

He is naturally very thin, and he runs over 120mpw. And yet he could reach a point where lifting too heavy becomes detrimental to his running. Why is that?

Slow, but heavy motions, like slow running on hills, on soft sand, or lifting, are making the muscle fibers more dense.

Dense fibers are not promoting speed.

However, with proper periodization, this type of exercise pays off.

First of all, you don't want to mix weight lifting with intervals/speed work in the same week.

The slow strength exercises are assimilated in 1-2 weeks, depending on age, nutrition and other factors.

The benefits of slow strength exercises occur during a period of higher mileage.

The legs are more stable on the ground and the motion more precise, making the aerobics work more efficient and improves the right group of muscles.

But the speed is the target in the end, so during a period of higher mileage, that strength should be converted into power.

For this, stair sprints, hill sprints, trampoline jumping and rope jumping are doing an excellent work.

During the period of higher mileage the muscles fibers density decreases and the speed work becomes favorable.

Having done all above, a period of speed work will have a great foundation. With enough strength, mileage and muscle elasticity, the speed work will be piece of cake and enjoyable.

After the speed period, start over.

As a coincidence, I made a training plan for Alan, based on this logic, but I don't remember what he chose at that time.