GBR Andrew Butchart -- Profile, Progression, Questions?

fred wrote:

OK, he did cross, then he went to Flagstaff, and before the Olympics he trained in France at 7,800.

The workouts were from April this year.

So maybe he's a super responder to altitude.

Fred!

I think the Flagstaff connection might be suspicious (and may include me).

Oh boy.

That training schedule for Andrew Butchart looked almost exactly the same …as my training schedule.

Do you think it is a "suspicious" coincidence?

I am confused…since Andrew was in the Olympics…and I am still really slow…even with pretty much exactly the same non-Kenyan-hard training (maybe I run a little slower) at altitude.

fred.

Why am I still so slow…and Andrew, Nick, and Centro went to the Olympics? (Centro won a Gold medal and I did not win any Gold medal.)

Darn.

You can't always base his potential just off final race times too. It only shows half the story.

In the UK 5000m champs this year the overall time was 'only' 13:44 but if you actually watched the race it was far more impressive. I don't know the exact splits but Butchart took off with 2k to go and I think ran the rest of the race at sub 13 pace, winning by a distance. Anyone dropping 2:35 km's for the last 2km of a 5000m race, no matter what speed the previous 3km were run at is in serious shape.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=duA0WsmJ858

- It starts just at end of 4th Km (2:34!) and then he carries on pushing with a 61, 62 and last 200m he is gesturing to the crowd and still runs under 2:35. 5:09 2km isn't jogging.

The kid did great, let's hope he keeps it up.

Buchart's improvement this year has been tremendous, from failing to make the EURO XC team (finishing 13th in the trial) in November to 6th in the Olympics in August, phenomenal. I'm sure this is as a result of hard work and the fact he hasn't been in the sport long. The only concern I have is the 'medical' back up at UKA and the encouragement to 'get a TUE', at one point it was rumoured that endurance athletes were being actively encouraged to take Thyroid meds....

http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/news/uk_news/Health/article1537347.ece

I'm not assuming ALL the UKA endurance athletes are doing this but I know of several who are, there may be more. Similarly Asthma meds are much more common (did anyone see Mo having a puff on his inhaler at London games, he was never asthmatic before). There was also talk of pine bark extract tablets being used, whatever else UKA certainly covers all the 'medical' side of things.

I have trouble taking any threads on this site seriously and this one even less so.. some of the poster on here are so clueless about real racing it make you realise that most posters on here are in fact HS kids who know jack s*it about running.

why are people even talking about times in 5K and 1500 meter races where tactics are everything.

I agree with the above poster and please people, think before biting on such lame threads

Just to add. Only sub elite runners at these distances concentrate on times. (unless they are in with a shot at a WR)

Tendington you say? wrote:

http://www.swlondoner.co.uk/teddington-turned-my-life-around-says-farah-ahead-of-london-marathon-debut/

Yeah...the good old days. Mo ran 13:08 while living in Teddington too!

There isn't a "Butchart's doping allegation" here. It asks for questions. Many of us here are established competitive runners or were, or coaches, and involved with the sport. We're not all basement dwellers. I started this thread to ask a question--how do you account for the jump? A jump and absolute peak for the Olympic final. He's the fastest Scott and third fastest GBR runner ever. Ask questions. Question everything.

I find it hard to believe anybody that stupid can manage to navigate their way round a track or to coach someone to do the same.

You don't even know your athletics history. As it was pointed out above, Butchart broke a long standing athletics record held by Nat Muir. Nat Muir was running at a time when there were several Scottish runners of the same or similar quality. British distance runners were also producing times that were all rarely matched. It was a climate conducive of running fast times - google "social facilitation" in terms of human biology. If you don't know why athletes train and race better in groups, then you do have serious stupidity problems.

Its obvious to anyone that knows their athletics that right now in Scotland something similar is happening. Butchart was typical of the low achieving, slightly lazy runner that is now all too common in the western world. He has then got motivated enough, encouraged by seeing those around him make Olympic teams, and used his natural ability.

Oh, and its quite possible that Scots do have good genes for running, and its quite possible they are more mentally tough. They produced a disproportionate amount of good distance runners. There is also a very strong hill running scene, the cross country races are hard, far harder than running around a firm grass field in sunshine in the US. Even the track races can be harder, due to the ever present wind and often lashing rain or snow.

So Butchart is doing nothing similar to what Scottish athletes in the past did. Clearly the coaching expertise is right there in the one place. What is more troubling than Butchart running fast times is the preoponderance of under-achieving, reasonably talented white western runners who simply give up rather than hurt themselves a bit more to achieve elite times, and who sit on the internet making up excuses for their own lack of success.

Please show me the Scottish runners at the time of Nat Muir of the 'same or similar quality'

Ian Gillespie ran 13.18 in 1997 (years after Nat was competitive)

Ian McCafferty ran 13.19 in 1972 and Ian Stewart ran 13.20 in 1970 (years before Nat was competitive)

...the next best Scottish time is Jon Robson with 13.34 (1981 during Nat's time) and Glen Stewart's 13.37 in 2001 (again not during nat's career)

So basically during Nat's career you have

Nat Muir 13.17

Jon Robson 13.34

Jim Brown 13.39

Alistair Hutton 13.40

...and that is it sub 13.45

So a Scottish all time list has 8 guys in 13.45 in History, hardly amazing, in fact Wales is much stronger, I would imagine most counties in England would not be too far off this standard.

AthsVictoria wrote:

Did it occur to you? wrote:

That Butchart might not have told the whole truth about his training?

Also worth noting that the quality of races he has been in of late is a huge jump from 2014.

Finally, anyone that thinks a 3:44 is a true representation of his 1500m ability doesn't know the sport. The guy could clearly run a 3:37 in the right setting.

1500m has been his bread and butter historically and takes up the bulk of his recorded results. A good five year stretch of 5-8 1500m races a year with a basic line debunks your statement.

One thing is for sure, this jump has happened within a few months leading up to Rio.

It's not like this kid was even owning everyone in regional and national competition last year. He simply wasn't. But he's 6th in the world this month.

I already disproved your last point - try reading. Fastest leg in national road relays TWO YEARS AGO.

That's 2014 in case your arithmetic is as bad as your reading.

Also finished 13th in the Euro XC trial in November, 86th in World Cross in 2015, 12th in the Euro Cup 10k in 29.32 in 2015, road pb of 29.18 as recently as last year. Not suggesting he is dodgy but the vast majority of his improvement has come since Christmas.

"Scottish jokers?" You think Scottish people are a joke? In a population of 5 million, a country produces a good number of runners. The US has how many? The US used to produce more top runners than it does now. Scotland also used to have many top marathon runners. Both are now afflicted by overweight people, lack of exercise, lack of pavements along roads, Scotland maybe not so bad as some parts of the US. What exactly is your point? That Scotland cannot produce one single fast 5000m runner any more? Because? Well, just because you say so, probably becauase personally you've never achieved anything remotely as successful in your life and like to make yourself feel better about it.

13 months ago @ Sainsbury 5000m Champs

1 13:42.20 Tom Farrell

2 13:44.27 Andy Vernon

3 13:52.04 Jonathan Mellor

4 13:56.14 Andrew Butchart

Last week @ Rio Olympics 5000m FINAL

1 Mohamed FARAH GBR 13:03.30

2 Paul Kipkemoi CHELIMO USA 13:03.90 PB

3 Hagos GEBRHIWET ETH 13:04.35

4 Mohammed AHMED CAN 13:05.94

5 Bernard LAGAT USA 13:06.78 SB

6 Andrew BUTCHART GBR 13:08.61 PB

That's some serious development!

Roho. wrote:

These f***ing boards, no one is allowed to improve without dope suspicion. How does anyone get anywhere?

If you look at his progression, he doesn't get much better from 20-22 years old, and isn't that good at 23 either with only a 13:58 5k and 8:0x 3k. Suddenly, 1 year later, he's winning or getting top 3 spots at high competition meets and running 13:08-13:14.

Does that sound reasonable to you?

Sounds to me like he got frustrated and finally hopped aboard the dope train

cbenson4 wrote:

Roho. wrote:

These f***ing boards, no one is allowed to improve without dope suspicion. How does anyone get anywhere?

If you look at his progression, he doesn't get much better from 20-22 years old, and isn't that good at 23 either with only a 13:58 5k and 8:0x 3k. Suddenly, 1 year later, he's winning or getting top 3 spots at high competition meets and running 13:08-13:14.

Does that sound reasonable to you?

Sounds to me like he got frustrated and finally hopped aboard the dope train

Made a mistake, he ran 13:29 last year for 5k. 13:58 was 2014.

Real Points wrote:

13 months ago @ Sainsbury 5000m Champs

1 13:42.20 Tom Farrell

2 13:44.27 Andy Vernon

3 13:52.04 Jonathan Mellor

4 13:56.14 Andrew Butchart

Last week @ Rio Olympics 5000m FINAL

1 Mohamed FARAH GBR 13:03.30

2 Paul Kipkemoi CHELIMO USA 13:03.90 PB

3 Hagos GEBRHIWET ETH 13:04.35

4 Mohammed AHMED CAN 13:05.94

5 Bernard LAGAT USA 13:06.78 SB

6 Andrew BUTCHART GBR 13:08.61 PB

That's some serious development!

Yes it is. Watch out. I've got the best dope around and he gets it al from me at a discount. If it wasn't for all the drugs I'm giving him, he would be over a minute slower.

PrZ wrote:

He's got a super smooth stride, I watched him destroy Andy Vernon in a road 10k in London back in June.

Andy Vernon really needs to stop playing at this running business and give me a call. He's got my number.

Scottish jokers wrote:

Also finished 13th in the Euro XC trial in November, 86th in World Cross in 2015, 12th in the Euro Cup 10k in 29.32 in 2015, road pb of 29.18 as recently as last year. Not suggesting he is dodgy but the vast majority of his improvement has come since Christmas.

I was responding specifically to the comment made twice

"It's not like this kid was even owning everyone in regional and national competition last year."

There are two different English road relay championships. The six stage where he ran fastest leg is over a distance that suits 5k runners. Butchart is a 5000m runner not a 10000m runner.

There is also a 12 stage race where they run alternate 3 and 5 mile legs. Butchart didn't run for Central in 2016 or 2015

He did do the 12 stage in 2014 and ran a long leg

and guess what he was fastest long leg back in April 2014. That's beating all the English club runners.

Can we stop all this crap about unusual or suspicious improvement now please.

Real Points wrote:

13 months ago @ Sainsbury 5000m Champs

1 13:42.20 Tom Farrell

2 13:44.27 Andy Vernon

3 13:52.04 Jonathan Mellor

4 13:56.14 Andrew Butchart

Last week @ Rio Olympics 5000m FINAL

1 Mohamed FARAH GBR 13:03.30

2 Paul Kipkemoi CHELIMO USA 13:03.90 PB

3 Hagos GEBRHIWET ETH 13:04.35

4 Mohammed AHMED CAN 13:05.94

5 Bernard LAGAT USA 13:06.78 SB

6 Andrew BUTCHART GBR 13:08.61 PB

That's some serious development!

Seriously. Did you watch the final? They went out hard to try to attack Mo. The one 13 months ago was slower earlier in the race. It's called tactical racing. Elites do this rather than sub elites who just run eyeballs out because they know no different

British Des fan wrote:

Real Points wrote:

13 months ago @ Sainsbury 5000m Champs

1 13:42.20 Tom Farrell

2 13:44.27 Andy Vernon

3 13:52.04 Jonathan Mellor

4 13:56.14 Andrew Butchart

Last week @ Rio Olympics 5000m FINAL

1 Mohamed FARAH GBR 13:03.30

2 Paul Kipkemoi CHELIMO USA 13:03.90 PB

3 Hagos GEBRHIWET ETH 13:04.35

4 Mohammed AHMED CAN 13:05.94

5 Bernard LAGAT USA 13:06.78 SB

6 Andrew BUTCHART GBR 13:08.61 PB

That's some serious development!

Seriously. Did you watch the final? They went out hard to try to attack Mo. The one 13 months ago was slower earlier in the race. It's called tactical racing. Elites do this rather than sub elites who just run eyeballs out because they know no different

I've seen a number of Butchart's races and yes I watched the final. The point of my comparison is that 13 months ago Butchart was 14 seconds behind the winner of a regional UK race. One month after that he finished 9 seconds behind Vernon's win in Ninove. That's exactly 1 year and 1 week between a 3rd place regionally 13:29 behind Vernon's 13:20, and 6th place globally 13:08, 5 seconds behind World beater Farah's 13:05.

...in every situation this has red flags and should be questioned.

I don't think anyone can follow your posts. Your rambling is so random that it is difficult to detect sarcasm or any jokes you may be making.

I don't know why you keep going on about the 'Brit invasion's of Flagstaff. There is obviously some kind of training camp there, it is a civilised place at altitude. I have heard of many runners going there. If you think there is something suspicious going on there then please provide or even just speculate some evidence. Lots of runners going somewhere is simply circumstantial.

Assuming your comment about the training of Butchart and your own is not some strange joke:

Andy Butchart is talented, you are not.

I also find it hard to believe that a hematologist/doctor has enough time to follow the training schedule of a full time athlete.